Not sure what happened to that missing sentence in my post but I meant that I leave my tailgate down.

 

1) Sometimes the light turns yellow at just past the point of being able to bring a big load to a stop without having things sliding all over the place and braking stuff.

2) If you're in a left turn lane out in the middle of the intersecting waiting to turn and when it turns yellow some er.. person just keeps going and doesn't stop for you, will the camera get you in that situation? People around here just don't know what road curtousy (sp?) is anymore.

 

On the practical side - Stopping for the light is the right thing to do, BUT, it is not what people normally do. Always something else on their minds, and, they HAVE to be somewhere at a certain time. Human nature figures in there, too.

On the legality side - I don't think this has been debated in court, yet. There was once a time, that a LEO had to witness a crime being committed (traffic laws, in this case) before a citation was written/issued.
From what I have read and understand, these scameras (sarcasm added) are being monitored by civilian contractors, NOT LEOs, therefor, IMO, these scameras are themselves. . . . illegal.

Now, what F. Lee Bailey type (read goooooooood lawyer) is going to shut this illegal activity down?

(I call it "Muncipal Extortion.")

Oh, and lastly..... yes, I have fractured a law or two in my driving years. I just don't tempt the scameras!

 

Around here, I've seen too many accidents from people rushing through late yellow lights that turn red way before they get there...

They've threatened to put in cameras, the problem got better...

I still think they should do it - too many people hurt around here because some idiot went too far.

I see yellow, slow down - better yet, I slow down BEFORE THE INTERSECTION while the light is STILL GREEN and make sure I have time to stop when it goes yellow.

I am completely paranoid when driving around here - high population density, lots of clueless people...

 

This blind "obey the law" stuff makes me crazy. When the law is manipulated specifically to "trap" those that fully intend upon obeying traffic regulations, for revenue reasons, I have a problem with that.

Three to five seconds for the yellow, depending upon intersection width, has been a published traffic engineering standard since the 1950's. When that is shortened, SAFE and orderly flow of traffic goes out the window. No amount of unreasonable enforcement can substitute for good engineering. For the last time, its all about the money!

Jim

 

South Carolina has added that law to the books but only in the larger cities.
The town I live in was going to try it but our population wasn't large enough.
We have some police on the force that just love to sit in a hidden place and give speeding tickets instead of going after the real crooks.

 

If you "fully intended upon obeying traffic regulations", you wouldn't be blowing red lights, would you? Blindly obeying the law, in this case, keeps me from killing or injuring other motorists. Maybe it is a bit Orwellian, but it is a good by-product, huh? For the last time, if you were stopping at red lights, YOU WOULD BE IMMUNE to unreasonable enforcement and to "manipulations to trap you". Same with speed traps. I don't speed, I don't get tickets, and I don't have to worry about where the speed traps are. If you can quote the timing of the lights in your area, then it sounds like you know where these lights are. And if you know of such areas, then it should be your cue to be especially careful while traveling through them and not get caught. (But that would be too much hassle, would it?) If you're worried about getting nailed blowing red lights you are either:

1) Not paying attention to your driving. (Talking on cell phone, reading, shaving etc...)
2) Going way too fast to be able to stop at a red light. (15-25 mph over posted limit.)
3) Too important a person or in too much of a hurry to stop.

People are blowing red lights not because of unreasonable engineering but because it is too much of a pain for them to stop and obey traffic laws.

By safe engineering, I'm sure you mean that you want more time? Of course. More time for you to disregard the light. Instead of being able to go through a yellow light for 4 seconds, you want to be able to go through a yellow light for 15 seconds, huh? Why not 3 hours. More time for you means less time for the other side and then you're back to square one. Now the other side will blow red lights because they know there's a 3 hour cycle time in that intersection. You guys know people don't want to stop, whether for a 4 second or a 3 hour yellow light. (See the three reasons above... especially #3.)
Why are you guys making excuses for dangerous driving? How about worrying more about YOUR driving than who's making money? I'd sure appreciate it.

And Jim, what if I came to Running Springs, Ca, ran a red light, ripped your 1994 F150 in half and killed your wife in the process? I bet you'd take me to court, you'd be all up in arms about people who run red lights. And I'd say:

"But Jim, and your Honor, it was unreasonable enforcement! The laws were manipulated specifically to trap me even as I fully intended upon obeying traffic regulations! What about the standards of the 1950's, your honor? Your Honor, the SAFE and orderly flow of traffic went out the window! If the court will allow, may I infer that no amount of unreasonable enforcement can substitute for good engineering. It's all about the money, your Honor. Not about my 17,000 lbs vehicle killing Mandy. Not at all, your Honor. "

And I would be acquited (because it is California, after all...) and you'd go home wife-less and 1994 F150-less because you know I was right? I can't be expected to pay attention to traffic, or to travel at such a speed where I might be able to stop for a red light. No sir.


ps. What about stop signs? Are the faded ones unreasonable entrapment? Do you guys stop at stop signs at all or is that out of style too? I bet the people getting red-light citations also have stop sign violations on their records.

 

Ain't that the truth...

 

If you are paying attention at all, you will know when you are approaching a green just about how long it's been green. We call that a "stale green light" in our defensive driving course. Many intersections have walk lights that change before the yellow. Flashing walks means you are probably ok. Once they stop, the yellow is sure to come very quickly.

I know it seems like it takes extra time to slow down, make the stops, sit at a few lights. But on an average drive, it's a few minutes. Far less than the time of getting a ticket. Much much less than an accident. An eternity in some cases.

And, if you are coasting down and tapping your brake, the knucklehead behind you is less likely to rear end you too.

Anticipating, coasting down, and timing for lights will save you gas, too.

 

What about the wrecks caused by red light runners? Do they not impede the "SAFE and orderly flow of traffic" ? And the money it costs in lost time, lost wages, loss of property and/or life, injuries and insurance rates going up? Insurance rates go up for everyone, not just red light runners. (Another scam in itself...)

 

The driving habits in the city where I live has always thrown people from other places off. It's always been the norm here hurry through the yellow lights, with the cars behind following through the red. I might see 4 or 5 cars follow though on a red light. We never had a problem with it till transplated people moved in. If you're first in line on a red, you just sit and wait a bit to see who is going to be the last car though before proceeding. You can tell the tourists when they blow their horns. Natives rarely used horns here, except maybe so they can wave to say hi. When the major growth started, traffic accidents were caused just by someone laying on the horn..

A few years ago they installed the cameras, and the only way they got it pushed through was by telling people that they would be used for traffic change only, (so that the inductive coils, that don't work with motorcycles and lifted trucks, could be done away with.)

This has changed over the years. When two people enter into a contract, if one person changes the contract, the contract is void. I find the same people that blindly follow laws, that have drifted away from the spirit, are the same ones that will blindly drive through an intersection and blame everyone else when they get broadsided.

I look at traffic lights as indicators, not failsafes, and try to be aware of what's going on. Maybe that's because of my motorcycle endorsement, I don't know. Maybe it's just an Oregon thing...

 

That is a trick I have used for years, as soon as the don't walk is on, you KNOW the yellow is just about on...coasting is another, saves on gas and brakes. I will admit to going through intersections with the yellow at times, but only because it came on too close to my being in the intersection to reasonably stop. Around here, there is a ticket for running a yellow, when they deem that you had time to stop but chose not to. If you are fairly close to the intersection at the time the yellow comes on, you are allowed to go through, but if you could be stopped in time, then it's ticket time. The only times I go through is if I am too close to stop reasonably, or if it is slick and I am too close to stop reasonably. Still though defensive driving is necessary due to the other inattentaive drives. I DO NOT trust the other drivers to always do what they are syupposed to. Many times I have seen the accident potentially coming by simply watching the behavior of the other drivers.
Now to the timing of the camera lights, they do on occasion play with it for ticket revenue, and it is very possibly for a safe and normally legal driver to get ticketed under those circomstances. This is not to say that those are the only way anyone gets caught. I personally have never gotten a camera ticket as yet, but my exposure to them is fairly light generally. If it is safe and prudent, i will stop. It's a judgement call at the moment, and too many drivers do push the edge of prudent, not to mention safe...

 

Beautiful! So it's normal in Oregon for people to disregard traffic lights. I see. Why have traffic lights at all then if they are just a decorative item? (They do look stunning at Christmas-time though, don't they? Pretty reds and greens... very festive.) Think of all the municipal funds that could be saved by not installing traffic lights! Maybe all intersections in Oregon should be 4-way stops then, huh? Thoses pesky out-of-towners who follow traffic laws, I tell you! If they don't know the area, let them die! To hell with the rules, from now on, the biggest vehicle has the right-of-way. It's a good thing I drive an F250. Too bad/so sad for cars, motorcycles, cyclist and pedestrians that are in my path...

I don't know if I am reading your post correctly but within the context of the first 1/3 of your post, I think I have it down correctly. OK, so I'm at a red light, the light turns green, I proceed through the intersection. OK, someone decides not to stop on their red light... I get broadsided and its MY FAULT for not expecting people to break the law? I should expect anarchy on my streets and highways perhaps? If 5 or 6 cars go through the light after it turns red, why not 10 or 12? 20 or 30? Why stop at all? There is a time for leniency with rules, but not when you are in control of a potentially dangerous piece of equipment. Despite that, a ticket for red-light-running seems appropriate and other motorists stopping at a red light is an entirely reasonable expectation on my part. By that logic, it won't be my fault either when I get out of my truck and shoot you in the face with my .357 then? You should have expected a slug coming your way, shouldn't you? Everyone in Texas shoots at other people. It's just the way it is here. Its those damned out-of-towner that get mad when they get blasted. They have drifted away from the spirit.


That sounds just like my wife. Traffic lights are merely a suggestion to her. Afterall, she always tell me that "With a little luck, every red light is green." She also goes right through stop signs, makes beautiful left-on-reds and she doesn't understand that the gas pedal isn't an ON/OFF switch. That is why I drive her to and from work everyday. Its a wonder she isn't dead already, but oh boy! do the tickets rack up...

 

While taking my cdl test a couple years ago, the tester told me to stop at a yellow if at all possible. Even if this means making a very quick stop.

The tester worked in Oregon and Washington, he said that Oregon law says "stop at a tellow like it was red" and Washington says "proceed with caution".

I would rather get bumped from somebody behind me then be in a intersection during a red.

BTW I drive through two intersections everyday that have cameras while driving the work truck. People tailgate so bad that they can't see what color the light is and just "tag along". I have seen the cameras flash behind me getting those people that are tailgating me. I'm all for the camers. Besides all they all have signs stating "cameras in use" a block before. Pay attention and you should be fine.

 

Basically, other than taking things to the extreme, you're absolutely right... But, it can change, depending on where you are in the state.

I guess Oregon's kind of a strange place. On one hand we are a hotbed for eco terrorists and tree huggers, but still have working cowboys and loggers. (We still have more cows and trees here than people, Tex...)

We have other people pump our gas, have medical marijuana, assisted suicide, a state health care plan and don't pay sales tax - yet, our first state police force was trained by Hitlers SS in **** Germany and the national headquarters for the KKK was here, after they were booted out of the south. It's a living contradiction here that seems to work.

But, that doesn't have much to do with traffic lights. It's been years, but I have actually seen 15 cars drive though a red light on red. The problem is mostly limited to this city. It's just common courtesy to stop if you're not right on the tail of the red light blower in front of you. It's all what you're used to and they still ticket for revenue. You get used to it. I mean, just because the light turns green doesn't mean you have to slam down the gas pedal without looking around.

Another thing here, that I'm sure would make you lock and load, is when someone stops in the middle of the road before making a right into a driveway, to make sure no kids are there. We used to get a lot of letters to the editor from non-natives on that...