Hello, I was about to purchase an F-150 but am holding off because of some concerns Im having about certain problems that exist in the F-150. I'm not very familiar with the manufacturing and engineering process so forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question. I was wondering if when Ford discovers problems pertaining to a truck (i.e. vibration) if they immediately begin work on the same model year trucks to solve the problem or do they wait until the next model year to try and solve the problem. I'd appreciate any help. Thank you

 

What vibration???

 

There is no one that can answer that question here unless we have a higher level Ford employee willing to speak up. Ford, like most other industrial giants, will probably do as little as possible to satisfy the public or governmental saftey officers.

There are people complaining of the vibration in 04 and 05 model year trucks. I believe these are few and far between though.

 

Well, once a builder identifies a multi vehicle problem, as opposed to a simple manufacture error, they use a fork process, going to the design team, and the suppliers.

If it is a component failure, they switch suppliers, or have the same supplier re-tool to correct the flaw.
The other fork tries to determine if the truck itself must be redesigned.
Vega died soon after introduction. It wasn’t savable. The F-150 will be saved.


If it’s supplier related, they will have the fix as quickly as they can, but it takes time.
This is how you end of with a different steering rack six months into the model year.

On the already shipped trucks, they have to address the problem in different ways.

This assumes it is not a life threatening problem. Fear of major class actions would force even an immoral company (which they are not) to address life threatening problems, but we are addressing lesser problems, such as the vibration.

Assume it’s a drivability problem, Ford has 36 months during which it has a lot of liability for repairs. Long term damage to the models reputation is also a consideration.

They will work to find ‘patches’ or ‘work arounds’. These will be released as they find them, and will only be applied to the ‘squeaky wheel’. That is, the trucks brought in for repair, not sweeping recalls for all trucks.
Truly, they know better than we how many trucks are affected. I get the impression that the Vibe Tribe, is pretty small.

Unfortunately, there is a financial component to this.

Most of the problems are ‘teething’ problems, that will have a fix sooner or later. We hope sooner.

The best advice if you want to buy an F-150 with the big rear, and LS, is to test drive it, at all speeds up to the freeway, and if it has any vibration, just find another truck.
That will shift the odds in your favor by a huge margin. Maybe 3% of the trucks have the actual vibration, and 90% of those buyers felt it on the test drive.

I specify the large rear and the LS, because as of today, I can not confirm a single Vibe Tribe truck with the 8.8 open rear.

Drive at least three of the trucks right off the bat, so you know how it should feel.
Hint, I have never needed to use two hands on the wheel of my truck, and I have never had enough vibration to rattle ice in a glass of soda.


I can list hundreds of other makes/models that have similar or worse problems, that took 1-10 years to find fixes. Any truck you buy can have a mysterious aliment that takes years to fix. Cars are worse, more and cheaper components.

I recently (last summer) had reason to test drive more than a score of used Chevrolet trucks. These ranged from 1989-1997. All of them had brake problems. Many just had ABS lights showing, but the brakes worked well. Others you just about couldn’t stop.
Chevy doesn’t acknowledge a problem…

I also had reason to test drive a dozen or so Cavilers, 1997-2001. Eight of them had a mysterious clunk in the rack and pinion. Owners were dumping them because they were getting estimates for repair of over a grand. The actual fix cost about 15 bucks. Chevy found the problem after 4 years of making the car, but never publicized it.
Chris

 

Thanks Chris, your posts are always well though out and informative, I appreciate it.

Forgive me but Im a little new to this, what is an 8.8 open rear? What is different about them that the vibration wouldnt affect?

 

Thank you,
about your question, I would pay more than a little to know.
It may not be true. I have read about 1600 posts on the Vibration and can not find any examples of the actual 'vibration' that have the open (not LS) rear.

The vibration is thought to be a 'drive train' 'harmonic'. This excludes the other vibration from out of balance tires.

You see, on the new truck, they have made some innovative, or radical if you don't like them, changes. To keep their lead against some pretty stiff competition, they made a lot of changes. I like the changes, but hidden somewhere in there is the Vib.

They made the frame 9 times more rigid. That is their statement, not mine. I believe them.

They added Rack and Pinion steering, which has caused a different, and usually quickly fixed vibration.
They mounted the shocks out board the frame. I don't think anyone thinks that is a problem.

They re-engineered the drive shaft.

They took it to 'drive by wire' no throttle cable.

The things that made the truck more rigid, and more sturdy have contributed to a condition where an out of balance tire or wheel will shake the truck.

A bad stake or bolt on the drive shaft and you would think you had a flat tire.

All the trucks are sensitive to tire balance, etc. They are very 'tight'.

This is not to say they didn't do a good thing with these mods. They are one of the reasons we love the trucks. I have NEVER driven a smoother truck, or one that handles like these do. I toss the big dog around like a sports car.
It handles weight like it was nothing. And on the highway, well, it's like a big sedan.
My wife loves driving it, and she loves using the tailgate. It's a big gate, and she tosses it around with one hand.

It's so quite inside at 60-70 on the freeway that you would think it was a Lincoln.
And the truck is nice looking.
My reg cab, with it's tiny back doors, is the most convenient truck I could imagine.

I say drive one, and see if you agree. Watch for any vibration, as it might be nothing, but you have to pay to find out. Let them fix it, then sell it...
Chris

 

Oops (I say that a lot lately) I didn't address the 8.8. Open just means not posi-limited etc. And 8.8 is the size in inches of the ring and pinion. The big rearend is 9.75. They have an even bigger one, 10 inch, but I have never seen one, and have no info.

 

thanks again Chris. What I cant seem to figure out is why even though a problem such as vibration might be a small percentage of trucks (even if it was only 1 or 2 percent) why would one truck have this problem while another truck built to the exact same specifications on the same assembly line not have it? I could understand people on assembly lines sometimes make mistakes or are careless which may cause some problems for individual cars, not a large amount of the same ones, but it seems like this vibration is on enough of the trucks to dismiss the idea of carelessness in the production process. In your opinion what is going on?

I have asked a similar question in another thread but wanted to get a response from you. Thanks

 

Well, mlazuka, Note in my reply that it is a 'synergic' or compounding problem.

The tightness of the design can cause a problem that would be dismissed, or not even noticeable on a 'looser' design truck.
Example, if you were running on E-class tires, and it vibrated the same as the worst of the Vib Tribe trucks, then you would not notice it. A Superduty rides like a truck, handles like a truck, and is compared to trucks.
The F-150 is compared to cars. This is not wrong, after all, Ford wants you to drive them instead of cars.
That's OK, just it's a tougher standard to meet. Chevy has made 'car like' trucks for many years. Their approach tends to the softer suspension end. Ford has tried to have the toughest suspension, with the smoothest ride.
Sounds impossible.
Their success rate has been pretty good, just not perfect.

Sounds easy to locate a problem in manufacturing. It is not.

Look up Doctor Deming’s works on managing production. The late Doctor was a true genius, and is credited, by the Japanese, with turning their auto industry into the fantastic industry it is today.
How this applies to a problem in a truck?
Example, in the 60's and 70's Chevy made a lot of cars. They cast a lot of blocks. They had suppliers that cast a lot of starter nose pieces.

On these cars, the nose piece of the starter mounts flush against the block, held by two or three bolts. The distance to the starter drive (or Bendix) from the center of the ring gear is critical. The drive must jump forward and engage the teeth on the ring gear. Too little clearance, and it screams, too much and you strip the teeth. The factory cast it's block with up to 60 thousands error. Sounds close. It isn't. The nose pieces were also allowed 60 thousands error.
Some fit great. Others could have up to 120 thousands of an inch too tight or too loose.
The correct fix would be to go to the suppliers and demand closer castings. Contracts signed years before stopped them. They could go to their own employees and demand the blocks be cast closer to spec. The unions threatened to strike.

How to fix this? They started sticking little thin shims between the starter and the block, as needed. Mickey Mouse? Yep. But it worked.

The old style management system allows a failure rate, or a tolerance rate on parts. A nasty example Dr Deming sights is door skins at a GM factory. They were allowing 5% of the door skins to 'not meet expectations'. Think how much tossing 5% of a product costs.... the consumer pays every cent of it.
He found that some of the machines were 'out of true'. This is the forming die. No matter what you did, the skin would be bad. No adjustment would work. Guys had worked on a machine for years, never producing a usable product. When it was suggested that they shut the machine down, the union went ballistic.
I hope they managed eventually...
I am not picking on Chevy here, they are just one example that I am familiar with.

So how does that apply. Just for the sake of argument, let's say that drive shafts, that Ford contracted with XYZ company, have a balance problem. Not in any other truck, but just this model. Who is at fault? Ford, for specifying a drive shaft that won't work with some trucks? Or the builder, who can point to a 100 other drive shafts models they build with no problems, and that only a few of these trucks have a problem with the offending line?
At this point they say that Ford has a bad design, and it's Ford's liability.
Ford says, this drive shaft may meet our specs, but we don't think it will work.
The builder says tough, give us different specs, pay for our R&D, and we will sell you 'corrected' shafts. Oh Yeah, and pay for the ones we already built to the old specifications, as well.
Ford says No, you pay, the parts are defective. Our specs allowed for 5% variance, and 5% of these are out of balance...and it turns out that 5% is too much for our new truck.... Um, lets give it to the lawyers...

Not too mention, whoever under-speced a part, or parts, and admits to making a multi-million dollar mistake, is looking for a new job the next day.

That's at Ford or XYZ. CYA anyone?

If Ford owns XYZ company outright, the problem is still the same, just in-house.

So the engineers try to replicate the problem in the lab, and the bean counters try to affix blame, while the dealerships are caught in the crossfire.

Remember the Firestone, Explorer fiasco? It worked out well in the end, but took a long time.
And by worked out well, I am NOT talking about those who died, or lost loved ones. I mean in the business sense, and for most users.

This is not in anyway a rag on Ford. Can you say Vega, Can you say Corvair?
I knew you could...

Everybody has a problem, and nobody likes to have to clean it up.
I think they are stepping up to the plate about as well as any large company.
Again, drive the trucks, and if you like it, buy it. I love mine. 95% of the owners love the trucks.
Chris

 

Excellent post again, Chris. I save a lot of your truck wisdom for future reference. This brings up a question. I'm heading towards a truck lift (getting a bit excited because it looks sooner than later and more realistic at this point). When I get the lift I'm going to put on bigger tires and considering going from the 3.55 LS gears I now have to the 4.10 gears. After reading your theory I'm assuming my best bet would to go non LS on the bigger gear to reduce the risk of inducing a vibration problem. What say you???

 

Why don't you put me on the spot?
Kidding, of course.

Look, I don't really know which it is, I see a huge amount of LS equipped with the problem, a couple of Open rears, that might or might not have the problem, and no posts from the guys with the little rear.
That looks like the main point of problem might be in the driveshaft/yoke/LS point.
Prove it? No. Play the odds? Yes.

But that isn't a reason to ditch the LS. The question is, do you have the vibe in the LS? if not, then don't lose sleep over it. Do the gears, and enjoy. Tossing out a good LS when it isn't vibrating is not good money sense.

I think I would keep a non vibrating LS and be very happy. If you change your drive shaft, common on some gear swaps, be sure a GOOD shop does it. Why take a chance? Let their liability insurance cover your worries. Same for the gear work. Some guys would do it themselves. I would on an old truck. On this baby, pay for it and don't sweat it.
If you have the vibe, I would hold off till the dealer fixed it, rather than give him a easy out. (The other guy did it...)

You know, we over worry this stuff, a lot.

4.10 gears strangely attract me. Still decent highway mileage, better around town, I bet.
Chris

 

Excellent points Chris.

Taking your 5% example a bit further, however, yields a VERY disturbing picture.

Let's take the current vibration problem, for example.

Let's say that 5% of all ring and pinion gears are below spec.

Let's also say that 5% of all driveshafts are below spec.
'
Let's FURTHER postulate, that an "out of spec" ring gear WILL NOT cause the dreaded vibration problem by itself, and an "out of spec" driveshaft WILL NOT cause the vibration problem by itself.

Let's further say that 5% of all the drivelines coming off a brand new assembly line are mis-aligned, but the mis-alignment by itself will NOT cause the dreaded vibration problem.

However, let's assume (this is a big assumption but bear with me), that a mis-aligned drive line AND an out of spec ring gear AND an out of spec driveshaft WILL cause the vibration problem.

So, using just pure probabilities.

So, we have 0.05 times 0.05 times 0.05 = 0.000125% of trucks will have a vibration problem. Not too bad.

Ford builds roughly 900,000-1 mil of these trucks a year. Multiply 1,000,000 times 0.000125% and you get 125 trucks.

That's 125 trucks that will have to be bought back, because while the dealer can order a new ring/pinion gear, or a new driveshaft, if the alignment of the driveline is off by 1/8 of an inch, because somebody at the factory drilled a hole 1/8th of an inch off for a mounting bracket, we'll never know.

That's 125 people that will bitch, complain, and tell their story to at least 5 other people whom they know.

That's 625 people who will relay that story to a 5 friends= 3125 people who will relay a story to 5 more people...etc...etc...etc.

The bottom line will be that "Oh, don't go buy the F150, my cousin's boyfriend friend had one of those, and he had to take it back, etc..etc.."

Judging by some of the stories around here, and dealers saying they had 3-4 F150's with "vibration issues" at one time, it sure looks like it's more than 125 trucks a year, and it sure looks like it's certainly more complex than either your examples, or my example.

And it sure looks like word has gotten around, because Consumer Reports reported "driveline issues for 4WD models" in their latest roundup.

Yeah, if it doesn't get solved, the "F150 brand" will have a seriously tarnished reputation. I think Ford has seriously underestimated the issue. It isn't a simple case of "checking tolerances" and suppliers, like you said. It's more than that.

And that is too bad, really.

 

Thanks Chris and everybody, I'm getting lots of good information here and I appreciate it.

Concerning the Consumer Reports rating on the F-150, I couldnt figure out what was going on. The 2WD got an average rating, 2nd only to the Tundra, (still way below the Tundra though) while the 4WD was at the bottom with a terrible rating. I was wondering what was so wrong with the 4WD that it get that much of a lower rating than the 2WD. Another strange thing was that according to CR the F-150 received "excellent" ratings in every category except body integrity. Maybe I'm somehow misinterpreting the system they use to rate vehicles, but does anyone else find this odd?

 

Powerdude, Interesting take.
A couple things, though, just for the sake of others reading it.

I was talking theory, not numbers. I agree that nobody knows the numbers, exactly. The five percent figure was just an example, as I am sure you know.

In a Synergic reaction, it's possible that the numbers won't break down as neatly as your examples. I could go into it, but that kind of math has no place in a Ford truck forum. Not that your numbers aren't right, they just don't usually apply to that kind of equation.

Simple example, All trucks with the LS vibrate at N miles per hour. All trucks with drive shafts 1.1 ounces out of balance, amplify the vibration by 175%, nominal. Tire/wheel combinations that weigh more than 74 lbs a corner exacerbate the harmonic by 35%. A 1 ounce weight variance on the aforementioned tire/wheel combination increases amplitude of the harmonic by 25%.
Now we have a truck that shakes till you can't steer it.

What is the fix here?

Proof that this is something approximating the case is the many reports of partial improvement when one of these factors is changed.

Note this confirms my statement that the frame's rigidity is involved. Not a big deduction on my part, about a score of other people have posted about it.


Consumers Report is based solely on reports from their very non-technical users.
A tire out of balance, a chattering LS, an out of balance drive shaft would all be included in CR's very unscientific poll. And a poll is what it is.


Historically, CR's car surveys are full of bat fewments...

I can site some really great examples, for over rating, try looking up the reliability of Yugos and Renaults. For under rating, look at Metros. In 96 the 96 was considered terrible. By 99 the 96 Metro was a best buy, no problems.
This is what happens when conclusions are taken from small samples.

CR will report on a truck with three (3) total responses. As you know, the halo effect goes both ways. A guy who loves his truck will overlook faults, a guy that feels buyers remorse will tell you it was built by Satan.

Strangle enough I never said "It isn't a simple case of "checking tolerances" and suppliers, like you said."

I presume that if you don't think the defective parts involve suppliers you are suggesting demonic possession?
Kidding of course.

Or perhaps you don't think there is a defect?
If it was all the trucks, then it would be a design flaw. Correct?
Then how come the vast majority of the trucks don't have it?

A design factor is what I attribute it to, exacerbated by components that aren’t "defective" but instead are not within the over precise 'tolerance' needed.
This has 0.0 to do with drilling a hole in the wrong place. Show me anywhere I implied that, please.

Again, I am offering theoretic possibilities based on real world situations. No demons, no 'Ford made it bad to annoy me' etc.

If, for example, the weight of the drive shaft was too much, when combined with a slightly out of round (40 thousands) rear, it would affect thousands of trucks. But the fix would be an expensive aluminum drive shaft, and/or a complete LS differential. If Ford had to pay for this for two thousand trucks it wouldn't be so bad. But once they did, another fifty thousand would demand the fix, even though they didn't need it.

Again, if you know what the problem is, how about sharing it?
Remember, answers that involve black helicopters, mythical beings, or Satan will be disqualified.

Being a smart aleck here, but you know what I mean.

If you don't think the problem exists, well and good.

But if it does exist, it is in parts made by suppliers, it is in the drive train, and it is a multi-part problem. And fixing it is a long slow slog, going between the people who make the stuff, the people that designed it, every solution being approved by the bean counters, and finally being signed off on by an executive.

Sorry if I am being too obvious, here.
Chri

 

mlazuka, CR is a sore point with many people. Good or bad, the magazine is VERY politically motivated. Just read them, for Pete’s sake. If you are on the left, they seem fair. If you are on the right, it's like reading propaganda. Not taking sides, just posting a fact. Read their editorials...

The info in their mag on trucks and cars comes from their very politically correct readers, most of whom class running out of gas with blowing up an engine. Not kidding, but wish I were. I have done product support for some of these overeducated, and totally ignorant folks. Whoo boy...
Some of their readers are sharp.
But remember, it's filtered through editors with huge axes to grind.

Also watch for tiny samples. 1 example of a problem can throw the rating.
Absurd.

I still look at them when I want a washer a dryer, even a big screen. I also cosult online reviews.


On cars, it's another story. American magazines have always trashed American cars and trucks. I have a stack of Vette articles from Car and Driver and Road and Track.

Sit and read them, with a few years distance and you will get a real education.
Cars that were junk, and have long since ended up in wrecking yards are rated so much better that Vette's you would think the Gods had handed them to the editors.
Jensen Healys, 924 Audi(excuse me, Porsche) etc. were all rated at the top, while L88 vettes, Lt1 Vettes were rated as junk. They rated the Opal GT as better than an LT1 Vette.

See which ones stood the test of time.

My favorite is a five sports car comparison. The vette was the quickest, the best cornering, the fastest, the most reliable.
It was the lowest rated... they said it wasn't interesting enough....


So saying, go to Edmunds.com, and read about a thousand user (not editor) reviews of whatever you are interested in.
Note 10% will be cheerleaders, 10% will be people selling the other brands. If you read enough of them, you will get a true grasp of the vehicles.

Forums are another good place, but recall, mostly people with problems post questions here. And the occasional flame war doesn't really help...
Best of luck, again,
Chris