I just saw a news segment on Ethanol, due to the rise in gas prices.
I have a 239 late model flathead in my 53.

The show said Ethanol is made for engines AFTER 1970.
Here in Wisconsin there is 10 percent of this stuff in gas at the pump.

I wasn't happy when I heard this because there was no explanation if ran in engines BEFORE 1970.

If I have to run 10% of this cornmash in my gas, what damage am I going to do to the flathead?
thanks
todd

 

Ethanol is a Dry fuel.. its not good for any engine without harded valve seats.. worse than unleaded fuel.. I would at leat run a relead in your gas no matter if its Ethanol or Unleaded.. Also with Ethanol it can soften all the rubber in your fuel sysem so keep a close eye on all the rubber parts in your fuel system.. Update these parts as needed..

 

There is a wild and wooly debate that's been going on for the past 35 years concerning the use of alcohol additives in automotive gasoline (I won't get into aviation gasoline or two-stroke engines, since those have other issues when using alcohol). The debate contains a lot of heat and very little light. The groups involved, each with their own agenda, include farmer's groups, environmentalists, big oil, the government, automobile manufacturers, health officials, etc., etc. The bottom line is that almost all of the comments and "studies" are theoretical in nature, opinions, or propaganda. There is VERY little actual data on the technical and practical side of using ethanol in gasoline.

That said, I did some research before having Earl's engine rebuilt and here is what I found.

Many practicing mechanics and automotive technicians have noted that the removal of lead caused valve seat and valve wear on engines designed for leaded fuels. This problem can be overcome by having hardened valve seats installed in the engine. The reference to the year 1970 you mentioned is about the removal of tetra-ethyl lead octane rating enhancers from gasoline. If you are going to switch from a LEADED gasoline to a NON-LEADED gasoline, you should probably consider having hardened valve seats and maybe new valves installed. Switching from a non-alcohol unleaded fuel to a blended alcohol unleaded fuel is not the issue with valve/valve seat wear. I had hardened seats and new valves installed when Earl's engine was rebuilt so I could run on unleaded gas without worrying about it.

I could not find any other specific wear/durability issues noted in practical service by folks actually working on the engines. Either they didn't notice anything consistent on a sizable number of engines, or they didn't report it. The best example of a fleet-sized study I could find was from DuPont. Here is the paragraph that summarizes their findings:

I'm sure some of the FTE folks have seen problems with an engine that they can attribute to ethanol use. I suspect, however, that it may be difficult to find someone that has noticed a consistent pattern of damage on a reasonable number of engines that can be pinned down to ethanol use.

Personally, I use the stuff at the pump all the time, and I know it has varying amounts of alcohol in it. I've owned six vehicles that all have gone over 200,000 miles without any major engine repairs on this stuff, so I have no stong opinion either way.

 

Hell,

What we don't drink here, we pour inta the tank . Only problem is the people behind you. It makes their eyes water.

Seriously, Earl has (as usual) given good advice and info. I try to put some lead additive into mine when filling up. Just to be safe.

Happy motoring

Bubba

 

another thing on the ethanol issue, there is 10% in the gas here in MN, and they are debating going 20%........personally, i dont like the stuff....."oh, its good for the economy and the oil shortage"....well, we've got a 91 crown victoria that never makes less than 23-25....in places like South Dakota, where the gas isnt all converted to an ethanol mix....In Minnesota, that car only gets about 18-20 (and these figures are all highway miles)....my 69 F100 is the same way, it gets absolutely horrible mileage unless you put the ethanol-free stuff in it. You said they said not to use it in engines earlier than 1970....well my question is what the difference would be between a '67 360 and a '72-'75 360?.....ive found a gas station around here that sells ethanol-free gas "for their customers with classic cars and recreational vehicles"...problem is, they want like 15-20 cents a gallon more for it than regular gas....
In my opinion, a dry fuel that gives my vehicles poor gas mileage also, is no friend of mine....

 

'"what the difference would be between a '67 360 and a '72-'75 360?....."

Darryl (Did I spell that right?)

Hardened valve seats in your heads. It varied some, but most manufacturers had made the switch by about 1971-72.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, but I'd have to see some very controlled data to be convinced of a 20% reduction in fuel economy for gasohol. That's big. I'm getting ready to make a road trip in my F150. I'll switch back and forth and see if I can see a measurable difference on the interstate just for the sake of discussion.

 

I heard some professor from Pennsylvania a while back giving his take on ethanol. His studies showed that after all the growing and processing ethanol production actually consumes more product than is produced. Everything from running the tractors to drying the corn to transporting it and producing the ethanol consumes a tremendous amount of energy so ethanol is not an answer at our oil problems. Like huronfarmer said, now our generally sane governor wants to go from 10% to 20%. Sure it sounds good to corn farmers and environmentalists but not me.

EDIT:
I guess the professor was from Cornell in Iowa. Heres the article if it posts.

http://unisci.com/stories/20013/0813012.htm

 

Basically the facts are as follows: 1) It takes more energy to produce a gallon of ethonal than is contained in a gallon of ethonal. 2) There is less energy in a gallon of ethanol than is in a gallon of gasoline. Those facts being stated, ethanol production is still the fastest growing enterprise (for now) in the agribusiness sector. The reasons being far beyond the scope of this conversation. Suffice to say that ethanol will produce less horsepower per given volume of gasoline (lower mileage) and yes you do need hardened valve seats to burn it.

 

Does anyone know the exact year the switch was made. I was under the impression that the switch to hardened valve seats was made later...about 1975 for GM, but if they made it sooner than that I'd feel better about my engine. It's a 74.

Vern

 

That depanded on where the Truck/car was being built for.. Ca need the harded valve seats in the cars/trucks long before Mass did.. I know the GM plant in Framingham Mass didnt start putting harded Valve seats in intill the middle of 78. And from what My grandfather tell me the San Jose plant for GM started with them in 71.. So its really depanded on where the Unleaded gas was being used for frist..

 

Vern

There is an extremely high probablility you are good to go with 1974 heads. Another non foolproof clue is the size of your sparkplugs. Heads can be changed out in service of course. Small 5/8 hex plugs like an AC Delco R43TS or R45TS is another good sign you have the newer style heads. The big 13/16 hex is a bad sign in a GM head.

 

o.k. on unleaded gas amoco unleaded white gas has been around since early 50s or maybe longer i have used it since early 50s with no problems

 

Is there a chemist following this thread? I thought ethanol had more energy than gasoline. Isn't this why it is used by the Indy racers instead of gasoline? I think Brazil uses straight alcohol in their cars, but prob pays a lot more per gal for it. Can someone help me out here?

 

Nope, ethanol has about 63% less primary heat energy (oxidation energy) per gallon than gasoline. However, there are other factors that come into play when using ethanol as a motor fuel, so you can't just say that ethanol will only generate 63% of the energy in an engine as the same amount of gasoline. That said, ethanol usually ends up producing about 20 to 30% less energy than gasoline per gallon used in a typical engine.

I'm not talking about special racing fuel mixes here. The use of alcohol (methanol or ethanol) in a race fuel mix is usually a totally different story.

For a lot more information try this web site:

Biofuel Web Site

It's a bit biased toward the alcohol-fuel as a panacea for all gasoline's ills, but it does have a lot of the basic facts in it.

 

"I thought ethanol had more energy than gasoline."

Sometimes energy and octane are confused. 10% ethanol typically has a higher octane rating. The mix available around here is typically 2 -3 points higher and is referred to as midgrade, for the exact same price as regular non-ethanol. You could theoretically change your ignition advance curve to take advantage of the additional octane, which should affect performance and fuel mileage. Which I have done to my vehicles.

Interesting thread. I had never heard anyone complain of significantly reduced fuel efficiency with ethanol. I have very consistent MPG figures for my truck on ethanol. Not great mind you, but I know what my truck gets on ethanol. I just made the switch to regular today and am going to track my MPG closely. It takes at least a couple thousand miles to get data I'd trust.