GM heading for Chapter 11?
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From: Melbourne, Aus
You are right polarbear...
Interestingly (I am going to add my Australian insight again...)
Here in Australia, Ford and Holden (GM) outsell Toyota/Honda et al. in the Large car market like 3 to 1, despite the fact both Toyota and Hondas are usually cheaper.
Its not because they build more reliable cars, because they don't.
Its because both Ford and Holden give the public what they want.
A large powerful RWD car - something that people here love.
A FWD 4cylinder car is never going to be loved in the Australian market - at least not as much as a 400hp V8 powered RWD sedan with a 6-speed manual.
The 300C (and the 05 Mustang) is a fine example of what an American car should be - despite the fact I despise the ride and handling and the non switchable TC on it (the 300C), but thats another thread.
And the American public love the car, and are BUYING IT!!!
Interestingly (I am going to add my Australian insight again...)
Here in Australia, Ford and Holden (GM) outsell Toyota/Honda et al. in the Large car market like 3 to 1, despite the fact both Toyota and Hondas are usually cheaper.
Its not because they build more reliable cars, because they don't.
Its because both Ford and Holden give the public what they want.
A large powerful RWD car - something that people here love.
A FWD 4cylinder car is never going to be loved in the Australian market - at least not as much as a 400hp V8 powered RWD sedan with a 6-speed manual.
The 300C (and the 05 Mustang) is a fine example of what an American car should be - despite the fact I despise the ride and handling and the non switchable TC on it (the 300C), but thats another thread.
And the American public love the car, and are BUYING IT!!!
Elder User
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P51D Mustang is right.
GM needs to innovate, because they haven't for ages upon ages, with maybe one or two exceptions, like the Corvette.
The writing is on the wall anyway. Airlines and steel industries have shed their pension obligations and their retirement healthcare coverage obligations. A lot of other companies have seen that, and I'm sure they are thinking about it.
US Airways got the court to approve a 20-30% reduction in pay for it's pilots (I forget the exact number) and the court approved it, and the union could not do anything, because their former contract was declared invalid during bankruptcy.
That same thing is going to happen to the UAW when GM declares itself bankrupt. Which sucks for all the old people out there.
GM needs to innovate, because they haven't for ages upon ages, with maybe one or two exceptions, like the Corvette.
The writing is on the wall anyway. Airlines and steel industries have shed their pension obligations and their retirement healthcare coverage obligations. A lot of other companies have seen that, and I'm sure they are thinking about it.
US Airways got the court to approve a 20-30% reduction in pay for it's pilots (I forget the exact number) and the court approved it, and the union could not do anything, because their former contract was declared invalid during bankruptcy.
That same thing is going to happen to the UAW when GM declares itself bankrupt. Which sucks for all the old people out there.
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From: Hickory Tavern, SC
Last week in at www.detnews.com I read that GM asked all their suppliers to start using Chinese manufactors to make their parts to help cut cost on GM's vehicles.
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From: Melbourne, Aus
Originally Posted by polarbear
I wonder. Bear with me a second while I think out loud. The Japanese have already cornered the "good but boring" market. The Koreans have camped out on the low end of the price scale, and they don't seem content to stay there. The Germans, and Lexus, consider the premium Rolex-quality market their home turf. Cadillac, the manufacturer of what was arguably some of the worst luxury cars in recent memory, staged a dramatic comeback. The use of Led Zep's "Been a Long Time Since I Rock and Rolled" may go down as one of the Auto Industries best orchestrated comeback campaigns. The use of the '59 Eldo convert in the dream sequence was powerful stuff- "we remember what the name used to stand for," as the old boat gets passed by a then new CTS.
How'd they do it? Edgy styling, and, more importantly, fast cars that are fun to drive. I flat love their 5-second ad clips of "5 under 5." The new STS-V packs a whopping 440HP under that origami-shaped body. While I doubt build quality or refinement will be up to the standards set by Lexus or Mercedes, the cars should be a legitimate contender in that class, for a lot less money. The key ratio is "grins/mile, not problems/1000 units." In Europe, the new Turbo-Diesel powered BLS line will surface around the first of the year. That's right- a Caddy mit diesel to compete in the land of $6/gallon fuel. I'm going to be watching closely to see what the German press sez about that car.
How'd they do it? Edgy styling, and, more importantly, fast cars that are fun to drive. I flat love their 5-second ad clips of "5 under 5." The new STS-V packs a whopping 440HP under that origami-shaped body. While I doubt build quality or refinement will be up to the standards set by Lexus or Mercedes, the cars should be a legitimate contender in that class, for a lot less money. The key ratio is "grins/mile, not problems/1000 units." In Europe, the new Turbo-Diesel powered BLS line will surface around the first of the year. That's right- a Caddy mit diesel to compete in the land of $6/gallon fuel. I'm going to be watching closely to see what the German press sez about that car.
The first review from Europe on the CTS-V is just out today:
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/55720/cadillac_ctsv.html
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From: Melbourne, Aus
Yes.
Even if they don't sell many cars over there - which I don't imagine they will, the European market traditionally has a heavy weighting on interior quality (while the Cadillac isn't bad, it isn't an Audi), and the badge on the front of the car.
They shall gain a lot of respect though...
Holden gained phenomenal respect by exporting supercharged HSV's to the UK - hello 550hp, they didn't sell many cars, but it certainly helped them gain a foothold for when they shipped the Monaro (Pontiac GTO) over there, and now that is selling quite well...
Even if they don't sell many cars over there - which I don't imagine they will, the European market traditionally has a heavy weighting on interior quality (while the Cadillac isn't bad, it isn't an Audi), and the badge on the front of the car.
They shall gain a lot of respect though...
Holden gained phenomenal respect by exporting supercharged HSV's to the UK - hello 550hp, they didn't sell many cars, but it certainly helped them gain a foothold for when they shipped the Monaro (Pontiac GTO) over there, and now that is selling quite well...
Post Fiend
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From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
I'd bet you lunch (if you lived a bit closer 
) that they sell more than we think. Not of the CTS, but the little BTS around the bend. If GM kicks Saab, it'll be to make Trollhatten the Cadillac Capitol of Europe. Which would be kinda sad- I actually like Saabs.
) that they sell more than we think. Not of the CTS, but the little BTS around the bend. If GM kicks Saab, it'll be to make Trollhatten the Cadillac Capitol of Europe. Which would be kinda sad- I actually like Saabs.
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From: Melbourne, Aus
Yeah, so do I.
The fact that they at least attempt to be different.
It is a pity they are so unprofitable, because Volvo (kind of their major competitor) is doing rather well for Ford at the moment...
I still don't think they will sell that well, at least not initially.
The European market is a hard nut to crack, they still have the image that caddies are large gas gussling "Yank tanks" (I don't mean to offend anyone there BTW).
I not saying cadilac won't be able to sell vehicles over there, but it will take quite a few years (say 5) of good, European style products to do it.
The fact that they at least attempt to be different.
It is a pity they are so unprofitable, because Volvo (kind of their major competitor) is doing rather well for Ford at the moment...
I still don't think they will sell that well, at least not initially.
The European market is a hard nut to crack, they still have the image that caddies are large gas gussling "Yank tanks" (I don't mean to offend anyone there BTW).
I not saying cadilac won't be able to sell vehicles over there, but it will take quite a few years (say 5) of good, European style products to do it.
Last edited by BigF350; Apr 12, 2005 at 12:46 AM.
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Post Fiend
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From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
It'll be interesting, few shur. Lexus has had a tough time, but their customer retention is eye-popping. Mercedes has noticed that, once Lexus gets one of their customers, they never go back. There's been a fair amount of press in the German Auto Rags over the shoddy quality control of the local manufacturers- Volkswagen and Mercedes in particular, so I think they're more vulnerable now than they have been in decades.
Meanwhile, my bigger worry is that the imports are eating Ford and GM up alive on the homefront in passenger car sales. With potentially softening sales in the truck/SUV markets because of fuel prices, this market share concern takes a higher priority.
Meanwhile, my bigger worry is that the imports are eating Ford and GM up alive on the homefront in passenger car sales. With potentially softening sales in the truck/SUV markets because of fuel prices, this market share concern takes a higher priority.
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From: Melbourne, Aus
BTW, thought I may throw in a review of the Pontiac GTO by the same magazine (my favorite car mag BTW) for anyone interested...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/55715/1/vauxhall_monaro_vxr.html
They gave - this is a European car mag remember - a Porsche 996 911 Turbo S, 4 1/2 stars as well...
hmm...
Just food for thought.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/driven/55715/1/vauxhall_monaro_vxr.html
They gave - this is a European car mag remember - a Porsche 996 911 Turbo S, 4 1/2 stars as well...
hmm...
Just food for thought.
Last edited by BigF350; Apr 12, 2005 at 04:08 AM.
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From: north west new jersey
Originally Posted by polarbear
There's been a fair amount of press in the German Auto Rags over the shoddy quality control of the local manufacturers- Volkswagen and Mercedes in particular, so I think they're more vulnerable now than they have been in decades. .
you can say that again. the the new vw jetta is out a month. we have sold 3 and one is heading for buy back already. don't know anything about the other 2 any more then the owners say it looks like a corolla in the back, our gm sales are up. they are not going any where but up and better,
Last edited by captchas; Apr 15, 2005 at 07:04 PM.
New User
Joined: Apr 2005
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I have one word that explains GM's biggest problems -
UNION!!!!
GM can't afford to build cars for the same price as the foreign auto-makers. It is unfortunate that the Union came about to protect the workers and is now taking there jobs from them. Bad move takes the big man down!!
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From: Everett, Wa
Another person who looks at one simptom an thinks that the root of all evil. What about share holders that demand double digit returns on there stock. Rising medical costs, frivelous lawsuits, etc. They all contribute to the problem.
The biggest problem being under funded retirement plans. The blame for this can be blamed on the companies themselves and no one else. They are the ones that decided to fund the plans based on returns instead of funding them out of profits as they went along. Many companies did not make a contribution to the fund for over 10 years.
Oh and lets not forget the federal government. There are very few countries in the world that require the type of regulations we face in this country. Its also not a pay issue as workers in Europe and Japan make as much or more than we do in this country. The differnece is strict tort laws and national health plans. And most of those countries companies are in partnership with there workers rather than acting like the enemy. There is more than enough blame to spread around.
The biggest problem being under funded retirement plans. The blame for this can be blamed on the companies themselves and no one else. They are the ones that decided to fund the plans based on returns instead of funding them out of profits as they went along. Many companies did not make a contribution to the fund for over 10 years.
Oh and lets not forget the federal government. There are very few countries in the world that require the type of regulations we face in this country. Its also not a pay issue as workers in Europe and Japan make as much or more than we do in this country. The differnece is strict tort laws and national health plans. And most of those countries companies are in partnership with there workers rather than acting like the enemy. There is more than enough blame to spread around.
Last edited by tmyers; Apr 19, 2005 at 01:38 AM.
Post Fiend
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From: Damascus-Boring, Ore
Good post Terry- it's very easy to blame the workers or their unions. There is some blame there, to be sure, but upper management in both companies made errors that cost everyone billions in the last few years. Jaguar, Land Rover, Fiat, and Saab come to mind, in no particular order. GM spends $2B to bail out of an ill-concieved Fiat deal, but can't pony up to rejuvenate the passenger car line fast enough. 
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From: Melbourne, Aus
But, Jaguar and Land Rover (don't forget Aston Martin either) for Ford have a fantastic future ahead of them...
Rich heritage, and exciting products on the horizon WITH QUALITY!!!
Fiat and Saab... Well...
Well aside from Maserati and Ferrari - Fiat plan to sell Ferrari, and have aligned Maserati with Alfa - go figure, run the two areas of Fiat that make money into the ground, and I wonder why Fiat have no future
I wouldn't be touching that cash pit with a barge pole...
Rich heritage, and exciting products on the horizon WITH QUALITY!!!
Fiat and Saab... Well...
Well aside from Maserati and Ferrari - Fiat plan to sell Ferrari, and have aligned Maserati with Alfa - go figure, run the two areas of Fiat that make money into the ground, and I wonder why Fiat have no future
I wouldn't be touching that cash pit with a barge pole...
Last edited by BigF350; Apr 19, 2005 at 01:44 AM.