Wow, go away for lunch break and wooeee looks what's happened.

As Ken said earlier, each of the products has its own strengths and weaknesses, and each is a significant improvement over stock.

It would be nice if those of you with tuners would restrict your comments to what you like and dislike about the brand(s) that you personally have tried - and leave it at that. Likewise, unkind personal comments about other users named or inferred who favor one product or the other are uncalled for and unappreciated.

My goodness why in the world do some of you spend so much energy trying to dis a product that you don't even own and that, I don't believe, you've ever tried either.

I can only report what I've seen with my tuner the SCMT - accordingly I don't make statements about the Predator other than to report it's general published capabilities. As far as I know it's a fine tuner and generally I recommend that a use check it out along with the SCMT. I don't on stock in Superchips and if someone decides to go with the Predator after they've done their homework, why should that bruise my ego?

As I had posted earlier today on a similar thread. I have the SCMT. I also have the 2nd lowest posted 1/4 mile ET for a SuperDuty of 14.33 s and with a 1.902 s 60' time. My truck is stock except for the tuner.

BTW, it turned a 16.0 s 1/4 mile stock, so that gives you an idea of the type of improvment you can expect to see.

I don't have any issues with tranny relearning. I reflashed the truck, made some stock runs, reflashed the truck, made some High Performance runs - no drama. In fact, any time I've reflashed the truck from one tune to another I've had no issues.

Thank you.

Daryl

 

My motive here was to give my opinons on what I liked and disliked about each of the tuners in question. I'm not sure anymore exactly what qualifies a person to do so, but apparently according to some simply owning and using them doesn't.

I have stated my opinions, and sometimes I sound like a broken record even to myself. However, I try to keep my "attacks" of other products based purely on techinical information, and not simply because I own one- maybe the picture above will help convey that message. I think my opinion has been clearly stated, along with the information I feel that was needed to support it.

I am done here, along with any other threads concerning tuning, from here on out. It simply is no longer worth the effort.

 

I don't believe people were pointing the finger at you in particular, but consider this "what I liked and disliked about each of the tuners in question." Then go back and show where you posted your likes and dislikes about each of the tuners. I can't find that, I mainly find slamming of one particular product.

If we're gonna be fair... then be fair. Mention the failings of all the products, as well as the benefits. I've got customers who like all three, and customers that have tried all three (and I've got an XCalibrator on my desk because on guy returned it, said he prefers the throttle characteristics of the Predator). Likewise, I've had customers swap out Predators for SCMTs and SCMT's for Predators, etc.

Unfortunately, the sad truth is the tuning market is full of extreme opinions and a large number of large egos (that's an under-statement). Every one of the companies act like their stuff doesn't stink, slam the competition (until they partner with them, or go work for them, until they part ways again and then they slam each other). I have to shake my head sometimes, its quite childish. Heck, I've even heard partners from the same company slam each others tuning skills behind each others back. Everyone talks about their engineering... but it all comes from "acquired" source code and equipment, both taken from OEMs and from each other. You know why the Japanese tuner market doesn't exist? Because its hard to payoff someone to get you code when they live across the sea.

Even worse is not everyone discloses their connections, their biases, who their friends are, what they paid, or if they were given stuff to test, who was given free product, who they work for, etc. I'm not saying that's going on here, not in the least, but the Internet is full of crap like that. Worse is vendors try to offer solutions and get tangled up in the middle of squabbles. Much of it is personal, like when a thief gets angry because someone else stole his stolen stash. Sad.... but the tuning companies won't admit it.

 

As far as this thread is concerned, you are right. However, if you will go back and look at my first post here, I don't think it was anywhere near "slamming", as a matter of fact I stated that I thought the Predator by itself would no harm whatsoever to a truck. Yes, after provocation I became somewhat aggressive about the situation, out of frustration of extreme bias toward the opposite product found here on this forum.

I understand what you mean about the tuning industry- I talk to many companies quite often, and I hear about alot of it. I also understand why you are particularly frustrated about it yourself. My interest in the subject is nothing more than milking every ounce of power out of my truck, while keeping it in one piece - sometimes a touchy goal. To be quite honest, I am past the point of using either of the tuners in question here to reach that goal. I was simply voicing my opinion, whether it be too aggressive or not.

 

Frankly it looks like your goals aren't the same as 95% of those I see on the boards or get calls from. Most people aren't looking for the most power they can get... more and more power can increase the cost of ownership significantly, especially secondary systems. Take a look at the mods you have in your sig.... most people will never approach those kind of mods becaue they either don't have the money or they have to be able to depend on their trucks no matter what.

Do your mods make sense for a guy towing a 5th wheel full of cows? Nope. Do they make sense for the guy who likes to make Hondas eat their dust? Yup. There's often ego wrapped up in tuning, and people lose sight of the fact that most people just want some extra "ummmmpphhhh" without going overboard. If that weren't the case, the whole world would be driving muscle/sports cars.

Sure I can give someone a 170HP (or more if they like living dangerously!) tune with an SCT if they want it... but I don't recommend that kind of power for most people.

Here is a call I get every day: "I was on your web site looking at tuners.... which one do you recommend?" My answer usually starts out with something like "what are you looking for in a tuner" or "what do you use the truck for?"

Without an absolute answer for each of these, take a guess at the most common recommendation I give to these three common answers:

1. I do a lot of very heavy towing.
2. I don't tow often or I rarely tow.
3. I want as much power as I can get no matter what!

 

Well, which one?

 

Well...I for one think it is pretty ding dang funny. I have been around here for a little less than a year. First time diesel owner, let alone a 6.0. Until I started changing the oil in this truck I hadn't touched an oil drain plug in over 20 years.

Now here I am well into my...well...no body cares how old I am. In any case now I find myself changing oil again, disconnecting EGR valves (WARTS), changing onboard programming, looking for leaks and loose turbo hoses that I don't have, praising, thanking, admonishing, and argueing with people I have never met, seen, or spoke with before. Ain't life grand?

I have 3 daughters 33 to 13 years old...you'd think that I'd have enough drama in my life without coming to FTE...multiple times a day.

I learned a lot, I have laughed a lot (although not so much lately it seems), I have argued a lot. All in all I have enjoyed every minute of it.

But this tuner thing. Man...there are more incidents here involving exploded egos, product bashing, and personal attacks than with any other product discussed at FTE. The tuners wars make the oil discussions look like a second grade "he pushed me first" fight.

Then when the mushroom cloud dust clears someone comes along in their infinite wisdom ands says "Hey, it is a personal choice", "Whatever floats your boat".

It is the same arguement, the same hurt feelings, the same personal attacks, same "I'm done here", the same end result. I am surprised that we don't argue about which color is the best.

Very predictable as to who gets in, who says what, who gets mad. And that's the funny part. Kinda like watchin' old John Wayne movies...seen every one of them more times than I could ever count plus, I have 85 of his movies on DVD. But boy howdy, let SANDS OF IWO JIMA jump up on TNT on a Sunday afternoon and there I am right in the middle of the couch watching it again. Just like the tuner threads here.

All the tuners seem to be good. All the tuners have known pluses. All the tuners have Ford warranty risk.

The next time I see someome ask which tuner is best I think I'll tell them to stay the hell away from tuners...Bad for your mental health and emotional well being.

OK...I should have made this long enough that everyone has had a chance to take a deep breath and ...well...get over it. Move on.

Watch a John Wayne movie.

BTW: I won't tell you how SANDS OF IWO JIMA ends. Wouldn't want to ruin it for you.

Now which oil was it that Bob said was best?

 

Ken, I understand exactly what you are saying, but this really isn't true in a lot of cases.
Sure, there are a lot of Ford resources we've all benefited from, including the great Jerry W....but what about Dodge?
Applying the info (even when you have it) is also a pain in the butt.

"R" and I do Dodge in raw hex with no information. It's all done internally, outside of a few calls to the dealer to buy hardware (like any customer)...that really is the only connection. Maps are found manually and tested...it's like throwing darts and (at best) a buckshot. Trends are found, its decompiled and tuned SLOWLY. It takes many months for one application.

Same with the Duramax....raw hex, only limited info available.

You gotta come up someday (make sure I know ahead of time) and I'll show you around...cool stuff.

This is an odd thread, but its good to see where everyone is coming from.

So, I'll hold the banner:

 

This thread is way off base and I will steer it even further away
I have NO vested interest in any of the products...
I could care less which one I use,
just so long as it performs as stated...

I will be more pointed in my thoughts to ensure you know where I am coming from....

The webmaster can check his records...
or you can look at post # 15 in the Predator thread...
If I wasn't the first to order the Diablo Predator the NIGHT it was announced, I know I was close in the first few...
Look at the 1-15-04 post of mine when I complained that he got the predator to me TOO fast ...

Now look at the Superchips thread at my post on 4-28-04 (post #2 and 22)...
I responded before you did Vic on that thread because I was interested in the +150HP... I figured that the +100 HP of the predator was so much fun.... the 150 would be like Yippee!!!

But, having done a bit of research and the history of my buds with his sale on eBay of the superchips for the 7.3L ... I wanted some hard proof of the 150HP claim...

Call me a skeptic....
but it was more so that I was happy with the Predator and didn't need to squeeze "every 1/4hp outta my truck" ...
but just wanted to know it was worth it to upgrade...

Review the thread and you see I asked innumerable times to produce some proof...
After MANY attempts to get something to back up the 150HP claim I gave up and presumed it was "vaporware"....
Sorry, there's only one reason I can think of fr NOT producing the proof.... if you choose not to back up the numbers then the numbers must not be factual....

After months of asking for a dyno curve Vic...
and getting ALL kinds of excuses of why it couldn't be produced...

I surmised that it was "vaporware" for sure...

Then we started seeing redefining of terms to prove the numbers... that the +150HP was not the increase but that it was the Peak or whatever the heck was presented...
My eyes glossed over a LONG time before that point and I cared not be involved in it....
So I stayed out of the Superships thread...
and I stopped researching the SCMT...

Now given that, it has gotten to where I don't like others to be "marketed" to with things I have heard others say where untrue... I DIDN'T KNOW the truth - because no one produced any proof of their statements...

But I will tell you what I feel is the real problem here...
even though Ken tried to moderate your tone, you came back with a rebuttal of even him !!!!

Bud,
you'll do much better if you tone down the better than us attitude

I don't consider myself better than anyone...
but I am certainly no worse...
I'm one of the good guys that have tried to mediate and give a balanced view and when I see statements that slam any product other than yours... I have responded and have taken it further than I should at times....

And had my hand slapped at times too....

But I like this place...
I have a busy life and work hard,
but am fortunate to be able to do more than one thing at a time and while on the LONG conference calls I have to be on, and working from the study in my home... I can try to help on here...

ok... it's good to say that... and it was not meant to be mean or whatever...
my soapbox is put away and hope this helps you in some way....

good night - I'm going back to the master suite with my sweetie !

 

That wasn't a rebuttal...it was elaboration (which is what a thread is for, so many people can elaborate).
I wouldn't respond to any statement if I didn't respect the person stating it (I would just ignore it).
Hey, I'm responding to you....

I am NOT better than ANYONE in here, but I am certainly more informed than most on the tuning subject and what I state is backed up with research.
I take it very seriously, but enjoy the hell out of it.

I've got a bit of a percieved ego, but a lot of it is picked up in type. Talk to me in person (or even on the phone) and you'll feel different.

I don't directly make any extra money if you buy a tuner from the company I work for or the other guy....I'm paid to do what I do. There are a lot of people out there doing some REALLY sloppy tuning. I'm not out there pointing fingers and I was VERY up from about where I'm from right from the beginning.

If you owned a fence company, I'm gonna trust that you know more about fence than I do. If you told me how to build a gate, I certainly wouldn't think you thought of yourself as better...it's just what you do.

Still......a good thread and we're all friends here....

Next time you're in town......buy me a beer, eh?

 

I had no idea that there was so much controversy about programmers. I have been taking yalls advice and doin some research on my own. And now i think i understand most of the pros and cons to each one, i say that though with a vacillating tone. Reason being is i read a lot of yalls post and yall contridict each other quite often which is fine it just makes it hard for me to learn what it is i need to find. I am almost afraid to ask this question but what i want in a programmer is, LCD display, shift on the fly, good power gains, and no harm to my truck even over long periods of time. I hardly ever tow heavy most of it will always be light. So with that said one of the programmers i have seen with all this is the new banks. I have done limited research and have no found a huge following here at the post. Could yall point me in the right direction, or even country on this programmer. I know im not the only one reading this and tryin to figure out what all this means bc there are a lot more views than replies. And i am not asking for a another war about them. Im just wondering have yall seen any other that would fit my specs that i want on one and what do yall think about it.
Thanks Cody

 

Morning Cody !
I think I need an "ignition disabler" for my keyboards :-)
Friday night's after a night out should NOT be the time to bring out the soapbox

Given your criteria,
you limited the possibilites greatly...
My guess says you want the Banks or the Edge...

good luck with it... and get something SOON
Call Motorhaven, the sponsors of our electronic soapbox here @ 1-877-399-6417...
they'll have some good insight for ya !

 

The tranny learning procedure is not in your owner manual, but the idle learning procedure is. The tranny learning procedure is in the .....Tech Folder.... near the start of the 6.0 forum. The Torqushift Learning procedurre was taken from a Ford service bulletin for ANY hard shifting or battery disconnection.

I missed out on all the fun, but I am now working for a living and haven't had time to chime in.

 

Wowser...a lotta reading here, but anyway, I just orderd a 1704-a and am pumped to give it a try. One of the reasons i decide to go with the 1704, is reading here that it is one of the safer ones, given these motors already produce a lot of power in the first place. And the tranny tunes with each power level. The place of business I purchased it, told me to be safe, run in level 2, 90 hp. The 6.0 generates a lot of heat- and to be on the safe side, lvl 2 is safer.
I have an 05, with a straight through exhaust, 3.5". Is the downpipe on the 05 3.5" as well? And what is your (VIC) suggestion as to the level of power? on a day-to-day basis? i tow 3000# 5 days a week, standardcab truck (6400#'s!!!) with no intention of running gauges. I will probably go to level 3, since i drive aggressively, but do not beat the truck. I can give my opinions on this superchip 1704-a after a month or so. the other experiences i have with tuners/modules, is an Edge module, predator programmer, in the Duramax. there are differences, but like reiterated among the professionals above, all have good characteristics and require a little experience with some cash spent, of course. At least in my opinion.....
Wed. it will be here, the 1704, and am looking forward to it.

 

I am just tagging onto this thread and keepin my big mouth shut....