I am going to have my 92 F150 painted by a body shop and told them that I wanted a contract that would state that the cost of the job would be the same as the estimate and that only hidden unforseeable problems would be additional. And I asked for a completion date for the job. The body shop guy acted like he has never done a job with a contract involved.

Is it unusual to request a contract and completion date before they take my truck down to numerous separate pieces?

 

<cr>
You wouldn't get a contract from me. Depending on my schedule and the work involved, I might say 2-4 weeks. Your cost will be $xxxx plus materials and that is assuming there is not any extra problems found. If the paint peels off in the next 6 months (of course that has never happened), I'll fix it for free. Take it or leave it.

In most cases, if someone provides a contract, the contract is written to their advantage and I suspect if you provided the contract, they would tell you to take your work elsewhere. Take a look at some of the lower cost paint places. You will find working like, "There is no way the vehicle can be cleaned of all dirt or foreign substances." Now ask yourself, who is that protecting?

We have all heard horror stories about paint jobs that never got done or vehicles that have been stripped of every last bolt but never put back together. I have also met people that will never be happy with any of the work performed. There are stories from both sides of the fence.

Your best bet is to look at other cars they have done. Talk to their customers if that is possible. Check out how long they have been in business.

 

So you are saying that it isnt normal for a customer to want a contract when getting their pickup painted by a professional shop? My concern is that without a contract--I am giving them a blank check-when they will have the pickup disassembed in their shop.

I have checked their work and talked with their customers and they seem to do good work.

Cant materials and labor be listed in the contract? Cant cost be forecasted?

 

<cr>
Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds as if you aren't talking a straight paint job. There will be repair work (dents, rust, & etc.) to deal with. Disassembly of the vehicle and a whole range of unknown issues. More of a restoration job instead of a paint job. Am I correct?

 

Yes--small dents and dings will have to be repaired before the paintin--that have been itemized in detailed estimate that has already been given me. I am suggesting that the contract use the estimate
with a cause stating that hidden damage would be extra.

 

Body shops make their money on insurance jobs. So repaints sometimes get shoved back. One 6 hr job with parts can pay more money than a 3 day repaint.

 

I think that you are right--the body shops live for the insurance claims. they told me that estimates arent that important when dealing with insurance companies. And apparently because of this--they arent use to dealing with consumers that pay- out- of- their pocket and who want a reasonable and accurate estimate that would be expected when the consumer deals with anyone else --other than body shops.

Without a contract--how can the consumer protect himself--price wise and completion date wise?

 

<cr>
I don't think I really have an answer, that you are looking for. It sounds like you want a contract. It sounds like they aren't willing to give you one. Take your business elsewhere. When you get your contract, review it carefully and then have your attorney look at it. If thing don't work out, pay your attorney and have him file a lawsuit. If you win, you get your money back. If you don't, you've paid $7000 for a $2000 paint job and you still need to find someone to paint it.

If you can't tell, I don't like the way our civil law system works. There's something wrong when someone is awarded $1,000,000 for spilling hot coffee on her lap. There is something wrong when I read signs at a city park that say, "Warning. Falling on hard ground can cause injuries." (I just read that one today).

Sorry, I got off the subject.

Personally, I make an estimate and then require a down payment. The down payment is used as a hourly wage debit account. When the money runs out, I quit working. The customer can stop by anytime and take a look at what has been done. They can pull out of the project anytime they run out of money or if they have decided they want someone else to do the work. That is on restoration work and there is no contract.

On a simple repaint, I make a bid and require 1/2 payment. The remainder is due when the job is finished. If I underestimated, I take it in the shorts. If I overestimated, the customer gets some money back. There is no contract.

 

By checking out the bodyshops work. Most have albums filled with pictures and you could ask to see the recent work. Maybe make a few phone calls to their prior customers.

You can also ask for a phone call if the labor is going over the predetermined amount. Stopping by to see how the work is going, hopefully with a dozon donuts, sometimes helps.

When you go to a lawyer with a legal problem they ask for an up front retainer and give an estimate of the work involved - no guarantee they will get you off. Doctors are worse. They both just practice.

When you commission an artist to paint a picture and they state the charge being $4000 - they have an hourly rate in mind and, depending on their experience and reputation, you will get only so much for your money. Whether they spend an hour or a month on that picture depends on this.

Bodyshop owners have bills to pay and insurance is steady work with total repaints being kind of rare anymore. Ones that specialized in custom paint aren't going to want to contract. They have a reputation. What if they told someone $2500 for a job and when they got into it a bunch of rust showed up, costing 2 more grand to fix? Do they pay to do the work or do they charge the customer? The smart ones will call the customer and explain to get the OK for the extra work. If the customer balks and demands the extra work free, I'd turn the work back over to them if I was the bodyshop owner. If the finished product turns out bad, then people will see it and bodyshops reputation suffers. It's just not worth doing cheap work on a job with many variables.

My advise would be to shop around till you find someone you can trust. Maaco is upfront with their pricing and you know what you'll get - unfortunately...

 

Howdy;

I dont disagree with what you are saying. I agree: you get what you pay for. I have gone into the back of the shop and looked at the work and the neatness of the work area and have spoken to past customers. I think that this shop that I have in mind will do a good job. I also understand about damage and problems that can't reasonably be forecasted and included in the estimate and contract. That is why I suggested that there be a clause in the contract that would exclude the unforeseen from the agreed upon price in the contract. Hidden rust
and previous accident damage would be additional to the estimate .

It seems that you are suggesting that I trust the body shop to paint the vehicle at a reasonable price --after researching their previous work. I just want some guarantee that the price will be reasonable and close to the estimate--what is wrong with that?

A contract --such as I am suggesting --will protect the body shop from unreasonable demands and expectations I may try to make --and will protect me from unreasonable delays and added unexplained costs.

 

Your point doesn't sound unreasonable. Maybe it's just the wording. Instead of contract, perhaps service agreement would be a better term. There has to be a certain amount of trust on both sides. Most people have an emotional attachment to their vehicles if it's more than a few years old. The overhead for bodyshops can be high and the guys that will do total repaints are getting rare. The amount you are going to pay might seem like a lot of money, but is probably an average job to the bodyman who works on a tight budget.

Let me give an example. Right now I work for a company that builds communication towers and installs systems - turnkey. Cheap workmans comp. on employees can be as low as $25/$100. which means for every $100 you pay a guy, 25% more goes to workers comp. - that's on top of normal expenses. Industry standard for company insurance anymore is 2 million standard policy with a 5 million umbrella. The contract jobs might last 2 weeks and be worth 100 grand, just for labor. Contract negotiations might last six months to try to hammer out every detail. The contracts might end up being 100 pages long. Even with all the planning, I have yet to do one of these jobs where something didn't come up where a change wasn't made on a handshake.

Then along comes the ham radio guy that wants a small tower put on the side of his house. The job he wants done might be on the same scale as a big corporation or Fed job, but he makes $15/hr at his job. If I have time I'll do it. It might cost him, say $1500. The same job for a carrier might be $20,000. Will my quality of work be any different? No. But it'll be a nice easygoing handshake deal. I'd love to do these kind of jobs all the time, but it's financially difficult. There's guys that do it, however if the small time customer starts talking big time contracts, they will price themselves out of a job - just not worth it.

Same thing pretty much holds true for a small bodyshop. The money for insurance work might be tempting, but the hassle adds to the overhead and they might like doing repaints for private individuals. Start talking contracts and it might not be worth it to them. Reputation to a true craftsman is much more important than any single job. And either way, contract or handshake - it still involves trust.

If the guy you are looking at doing the work has been in business any length of time and has a good reputation, you should be able to sleep at night..

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

Howdy:

You may be right--maybe I should ask for a bid --rather than a contract.

You seem like a hardworking honorable guy.I haved always had respect for craftmen that are hard working and have pride in their work. I hope that I didn't insult the shop when I requested a contract. I have met few craftsmen that were good in their craft--that were at the same time: misleading or dishonest. But it is the estimator/advisor--the guy that first looks at the vehicle --with the customer is who I distrust.They arent always as knowledgeable as they should be about their craft.And don't always pass on the customer's concerns,expectations, and demands to the craftsman that will do the work.

My experience as a consumer/customer--is that the service order writer or in this case--the guy that gives the estimate--is the source of much misunderstanding and upset for the customer. If the customer could actually talk to the craftsman that will do the job--it would be much easier to trust the shop and trust that the job will be done as the customer wants.

How many times have you brought your vehicle into the repair shop and you give the service order writer a detailed account of what the problem is and when it occurs and what it sounds like--to find out later--that the service order writer left out 90 percent of that information you give him, on the service order--and the poor mechanic can't/doesn't understand what the complaint is? Same with body shops when a restoration is involved--and there is more than one way to repair the body panel and more than one way to apply the paint--the quick and cheap way--or the best,expensive and longest lasting way.

I distrust the office/management of the body shop--more than the actual craftsman that will do the job.Someone that can actually do the body work --and is excellent in his craft--doesn't need to be dishonest or misleading--he already has more work than he can handle.

This body shop that I want to do my vehicle- probaby employs 20 workers or so. And I sure that some of these body shop craftsmen have better skills and attitudes about their craft than the others do. And as a customer--there is no way for a customer to know which of these craftmen will actually do my vehicle and to what extent.

It would be hard for a customer to build trust in this environment--without something in writing. I understand from your account that these transactions usually occur without contracts--but this surprises me still--when one thinks of the money involved .

I was wanting to ask your guys that do bodywork: I was quoted a price of 6k to straighten some of body panels(mainly hail damage on roof panel and minor hail on hood ). The roof will have to be taken down to the bare metal--because of the infamous Ford flaking paint syndrome.They will remove the bed of the truck and will remove the windshield so that they can paint in the window channels .They will remove the outside mirrors and door handles.They dont want the new paint to have an edge anywhere. This impresses me. They will repaint with the same factory paint and will clear coat and guarantee the paint for the life of the vehicle--against fade and flaking. Does this price seems reasonable to you body shop guys?

 

In California, a repair shop (body shop) can call it an estimate but it is a contract. According to state regs, an estimated completion date is required on ALL CONTRACTS with exceptions such as supplier delays, weather, etc. Additional work must be approved by the customer with a complete estimate and modification to the completion date. Prior to delivey, take pics or video of your vehicle includng the underside and engine compartment, take video of applying a magnet to each area of the vehicle (possible indicator of filler- previous damage). This helps protect you from......

A body shop taking your car apart then saying........well your left front fender had a lot of filler appied to it and it wasn't done right so its going to cost you XXX dollars more. Magnets will only stick to metal surfaces which has at most 1/16" or so of filler applied...meaning minor body repair.

Also, state law prohibits a deposit of greater than 10% of the estimated job including materials.......if the money is held for longer than 30 days and is more than 10%, even small claims courts judges allow interest collection on that money.

Paying for installments on work is fair to all parties provided that the customer is allowed to hold back enough money at the end to have leverage to ensure the vehicle is completed as required. Otherwise, repair shops can hold your car and charge you space rental which can add up to thousands of dollars.

I also concur and always talk to the staff who will be doing the work on the vehicle..........it is always a learning experience for myself, the staff sometimes is helped out because we have saved them work and it allows a relationship to be established......