Hi, All--

I posted a few days ago, requesting information about whether there were any late-model 460's with factory-installed hydraulic roller cams, or if the blocks were machined to accept them, like the late-model 351W blocks were.

I discovered while researching further that not only was there NOT a factory-installed hydraulic roller cam, but that the aftermarket selection for such is VERY slim. Only Crane has these, and they only have three grinds.

Well, now I know what I'll have to do for a camshaft, and I've turned my attention to other areas.

Now, I'm researching the EFI systems on these cars, and part of that has to do with the computer.

Now, I seem to recall that Ford started putting EEC-V computers in vehicles as early as 1995 or 1996 (I have two vehicles currently with EEC-V computers in them--a '96 T-Bird and a '97 Mark VIII), so since the later 460/7.5L engines were EFI, it would seem that the latest of them would most likely be controlled by an EEC-V computer.

A LOT of the engines that used the EEC-V computer were Mass Air EFI systems, if not most or even all of them; most of them also used EDIS to control their spark, so my questions are as follows:

1.) What was the last year the 460 was produced?
2.) If the last year was 1996 or later, was it controlled by EEC-V?
3.) If it was controlled by EEC-V, was the EFI Mass Air or Speed Density?
4.) Was the EFI a sequential system?
5.) If the last engines were controlled by EEC-V, did they use EDIS or did they retain the distributor?

Answers to these questions will help me figure out what year components I need to get for this engine.

Thanks in advance!!

 

In it's final years, the 460 was only available in 'heavy duty' trucks which are exempt from many of the emissions rules for cars. The following answers to your questions are with respect to my '97 F250HD. There may be errors, so maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in and straighten me out.

1.) What was the last year the 460 was produced?
1997

2.) If the last year was 1996 or later, was it controlled by EEC-V?
Nope, it's EEC-IV

3.) If it was controlled by EEC-V, was the EFI Mass Air or Speed Density?
"California" emission models got mass air, all others are speed density

4.) Was the EFI a sequential system?
Yes

5.) If the last engines were controlled by EEC-V, did they use EDIS or did they retain the distributor?
EEC-IV/Distributor

 

I could be wrong on No#4 but I dont think so as I checked wireing diagrams and the only sequential ones were EEC-V Mass air.
I hopes this helps.
Leadmic

 

I knew someone would reply that KNEW (instead of me guessing) the answers.

On #4: The emissions sticker (under hood) on my non-CA truck says it's SEFI. I was a little surprised by that myself.

 

You can use a mustang 5.0 a9l family computer (eec-iv- mass air- sequential injection -and edis compatable) with one of these http://www.tweecer.com/.
go here and read alot http://tweecer.oplnk.net/viewforum.p...100951b3612a27
and here http://www.network54.com/Forum/85220

 

Thanks efi460, but I WANT EEC-V, because I'm going to be installing it into a vehicle that uses an EEC-V controller already (a Mark VIII--which has no distributor).

If there were components made for the 460 already that utilized EDIS, then I would just use them; as it stands now, it looks like I'll have to modify the 5.0 Explorer EDIS components and install them on the 460.

Then, the next major hurdle is getting all the sensors installed that the EEC-V uses, and getting all the MAF components for a late-model California-emissions 460, and "engineering" them to work with the EEC-V computer I have installed.

After I get all that sorted out, then I'll start working on buying components to build a good-sized stroker, like a 514 or 521, and size the EFI components to match (MAF sensor, TB, Injectors, etc.).

I don't think the TwEECer is currently available for EEC-V, but it could be; I am, however, familiar with it, as I was originally going to build a 408 stroker to install in my car, but decided to go with a 385-series stroker instead.

Thanks for all the responses so far--it's been good info!

 

I am building the same motor but with the 93 cobra x3z puter. also the 359341 crane hyd roller.have ported the e7te heads 300/201 cfm @.600
As I understand it the eec-iv and maybe the eec-v dosent know the difference between the edis-8 box and the tfi module meaning you should be able to run edis on any eec-iv (v) with the right hardware.
go to the the network 54 site the is a guy on there running a megasquirt 460 with edis (please use the search) also I have some pics of the ported e7te heads and ported factory intake.
what intake are you using?

 

I'm probably going to go with an aluminum Single-Plane intake, but I haven't decided on which single-plane intake to get yet.

I'm approaching this project in a step-by-step manner, with just basic goals outlined.

Here are the goals I have:

1.) Stroker with at least 514 c.i.
2.) Run 4R70W trans, so I'll have an OD, and can use the electronics from the EEC-V
3.) Aluminum heads that will support the cubes (also, I'm going with aluminum to save weight, and because I can run a little higher compression on the street, if I run into piston availability issues)
4.) EFI System that is compatible with the EEC-V system (which means mainly the sensors)
5.) Ignition system compatible with the EEC-V system (which is why I've been looking at EDIS; I already have most of the components from a 5.0L Explorer that I was going to use on the 408)
6.) Hydraulic Roller cam, for reduced friction and better flow in the "lift window" than a flat-tappet cam, and no valve adjustment necessary, as would be needed with a solid roller

Well, to implement the hydraulic roller cam, I needed to find out if Ford ever put any in these engines from the factory--and I found out they don't; I also found out there are very few hydraulic rollers that are even available off-the-shelf, so if I don't like those grinds, I'll probably have to go with a custom grind, and I'll probably have Buddy Rawls do it, because he's one person I know of that really DOES know his stuff about camshafts!

Next up--Fuel system; I know that Ford installed EFI on the later 460's, and that most of them were EEC-IV; I also knew that Ford began installing EEC-V computers on vehicles as early as 1995 (I saw a Powerstroke come in the dealership where I was a shop foreman back in 1995, and it had the EEC-V system on it), so I figured that maybe I might get lucky, and find that some of the 460's also were EEC-V controlled. It appears that they were in California, at least, so I can get parts for that system and install them on my stroker motor.

Considering I want to use EFI, AND EEC-V, most combinations like that utilize EDIS, and since my Mark VIII already has that in place, it would probably be simpler to modify the cam sensor to fit a 460 distributor than to try and make the Mark VIII computer recognize the TFI module in a distributor (since I plan on using the computer that's already there and just have a chip burned through a dyno-tune).

I also believe I can take the exciter ring off the Explorer dampener, and install it onto a 460 dampener, and then just mount the crank sensor in the right place (on the timing cover), and then the rest will pretty much just fall right into place with the EDIS. It's a pretty simple system, and Mark VIII's used the standard EDIS and EEC-V in 1996, so I can wire it up like a '96.

After figuring out the electronics of the EFI and EDIS systems for the engine, the rest is pretty easy--I just use a single-plane intake, weld injector bungs into it, install an elbow that will take a TB and IAC, bolt those on, connect a tube/hose to a MAF, wire it all up and go (over simplified, but that's the basics anyway).

So, this is what I have figured out:

1.) I can use an adapter plate to connect the 4R70W to the 514 (or whatever it will be)
2.) I can use a hydraulic roller cam, and if need be, I can have a custom grind made
3.) I can use the EEC-V computer system (including EFI and probably EDIS) so all my other systems in the Mark VIII will work properly (i.e.: there's a control center in the dash that does just about everything except cook my dinner--and I'm working on that!)

The things I haven't figured out yet are:

1.) What size engine I'll be building (at least a 514, and possibly a 521)
2.) What heads I'll be using (I do know I'll be using aluminum heads, though)
3.) What single-plane intake I'll be using (and subsequent TB, elbow, etc.)
4.) What injector size I'll be using (I have a set of 36lb-er's that I bought for the 408, but I don't think they're gonna be enough for an engine that's 25% bigger)
5.) What exhaust components I'm going to use (might use stock manifolds, might try to adapt headers designed for a Fox-body swap; haven't investigated this yet)

Right now, I'm still working on researching what I'll need for the EFI-EDIS combination, and when I get all that figured out, then I'll proceed on to the next item and get that sorted out.

 

I dont think that trans will handle a 460 much less a 514 without some major reworking.
Leadmic

 

Well sir--you are correct!

I'll be going completely through the trans and "beefing it up" so that it'll handle all the torque that monster will put out.

There are quite a few parts available to strengthen the 4R70W, and I plan to avail myself of all of them that will work!

( ;-{)}

 

To close up the original thread on 7.5L EFI, the Speed Density PCMs are all bank fire and the Mass Air PCMs are all sequential fire. Any 1996 302 or 351W eec-v PCM can be reflashed for the Mass Air 7.5L. The modular engine PCMs are different. The required PCM box hardware codes are ML1-441 or ML1-442. You can find the hardware code just above the bar code on the 104 pin connector in small print.

John

 

Thanks for the added information, John (f350bronco)

I kinda figured that the Mass-Air systems were SFI, but that wasn't explicitly stated anywhere.

As to the ECM--I'll be retaining the stock Mark VIII ECM and adapting all the sensors to the 521, because this ECM is interconnected to a bunch of different systems within the vehicle, and I don't want to disable any of them (i.e.: speed sensor indicates when the vehicle is going more than 60, and signals the air-ride suspension computer to lower the car an inch).

Also, it occurred to me yesterday that all the 4.6's use the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order, like the late-model 5.0's (and the 351C, etc.), but I don't think I've ever heard of a 385-series engine ever running anything other than the standard 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 firing order.

So, to use this ECM and the EDIS, I have no choice but to have a custom cam ground with the correct 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order.

Not all that big a deal really, because the cost of a custom-ground cam is fairly close to what an off-the-shelf cam runs, and since I want to run a hydraulic roller cam, this way I could have it customized for my combination.

 

My Mass Air 460 is currently is using an EEC-IV from a 302HO engine. The firing order is different than the standard 302 and stock 460. I just rewired the engine injector wiring harness to correct. Seems to run fine.

John

 

So, am I mis-reading the info seen in the pics here? (warning! pics are large as I didn't take the time to re-size them) Doesn't really matter to me- other than I'd just like to know.

Thanks!

 

Wow, this is a cool mystery. The top pic clearly shows a speed density induction system, while the sticker pics show the acronym "SFI".

I went back and looked at the EVTM manuals PCM connectors for 1995 through 1997 460 F250/F350s. The PCMs show all 1995 and all non CA 460s used eec-ivs EVEN IN 1997! Must have been a EPA GVW exemption. The CA trucks in 1996 and 1997 used eec-vs. All the eec-v trucks have a MAF sensor and individual injector lines. (which I assume means SequentialFuelInjection). All the eec-iv PCMs only have 2 bank lines, each firing 4 injectors and no MAF sensor.

Does the 1997 truck in the pics have a OBD-II plug? (probably under the dash?) or a Data Link Connector by the master cylinder under the hood. You wouldn't by chance know if it is eec-iv or eec-v (eec-iv has 60 pins and eec-v has 104 pins)?

John
BTW You have a really sharp eye for tiny details on stickers.