Hey RE_SPEED_FAB, the motor I'm building is a mild one built to last it will have longer duration and slightly higher lift cam 600cfm carter carb, pop-up pistons with 2v heads, 4v intake andd exhaust(it does work) timing gears instead of a chain, and other things that I have decided one yet. Oh by the way 2 things, I am only 16 and know more stuff about motors than I should, and the only 4 banger I know how to work on is the 2.3L ford--only because my sister's stang had it for a motor.


82' Flareside with 400 horse under the hood

 

Well, RE_SPEED_FAB, I'm sorry that you took offense to my snowboarding comment.... but I telemark and there's a saying that we have amongst our crowd: "If it were easy, it would be called 'snowboarding'". HA!

 

i'm 16, would never own a rice burner.
I teach the kids around here what a v8 is every time I pull up next to one. My truck may not be pretty, but it gets respect from the "smart" ricers around here who have a clue.

oh, and I'd like to give a "sorry" to the two kids in the red miata convertible sunday night. I didn't mean to embarass you. The 3+ second head start I gave you while I spun my radials on the wet roads should've been helpful. guess not.

 

Hey RE_SPEED_FAB, the motor I'm building is a mild one built to last it will have longer duration and slightly higher lift cam 600cfm carter carb, pop-up pistons with 2v heads, 4v intake andd exhaust(it does work) timing gears instead of a chain, and other things that I have decided one yet. Oh by the way 2 things, I am only 16 and know more stuff about motors than I should, and the only 4 banger I know how to work on is the 2.3L ford--only because my sister's stang had it for a motor




Hey mustange70, I'm not bashing you believe me, Im glad to hear your only 16 and are deep into this stuff, thats great. And I also used 2v heads with a 4v manifold when I did a 318 mopar 15 years ago, I even used 273 commando heads just to gain some compresion, so I know these things work also. The only way to learn these things is by experimenting and using the "hands on" approach, a lot of people just thumb through parts catalogs and assume they will get the HP that is advertised with the part. All in All 46fordtruck summed up the question of this post, the fact still remains.. chevy aftermarket preformance parts are still cheaper than Fords, it's been like that since I started buying parts and I dont see it changing.


Now sturzinator , do you fall into that 2 plank catagorey?
I could never figure out why you guys didnt fix your bindings so your boots would stay put!! would make it a lot easier to get the big air.

 

I guess I'm somewhat like mustange70--I know enough about V8s (even chevy-my friend has one that we're always working on) at 16 to last me a while. I would never own a ricer. I've pulled enough of 'em out of ditches. I think the reason Chevy parts are so cheap is because: Chevy drivers install the part, it breaks soon after that, and they have to go get another one.It's like a never ending cycle. The parts manufacturers know that they are going to get plenty of money even without charging outrageous prices.



Oh yeah-- to the guys that wanted mustangs: There is a '67 with the original 289 and C6 near me for $6000. Looks good, too. Only needs a little paint on the roof and hood. Interior is perfect from what I could tell. Too bad I can't buy it.

 

I'm a ford truck guy. Listen, I said Ford truck and not just Ford. I think the Chevy small block is so popular because it is near perfect for what it is. The reason there are so many aftermarket parts for it is because the engine has changed very little in 40plus years. On the other hand Ford seems to change engine designs quite often and not only that the same design engine has critical componet changes often from year to year. This is not bad for production cars because the changes often correct design flaws or shortcomings BUT it really hurts hotrodders. I like Ford engines but I am not a rich man and for the quality per dollar spent a Chevy V8 wins every single time. As to the fact Chevy aftermarket parts are cheap, some are some aren't. If your parts are going bad then consider a different brand. It's common sense not nuclear science. The small block Chevy V8 when properly assembled is one of, if not the most reliable engine, in history. Ford parts cost a ton and only very few people really know crap about how to build one up compared to Chevy V8's. Go ahead and flame but Fords are a pain in the *** to hot rod unless you have a way bigger checkbook than I do. I think Fords are superior to Chevys in every respect but one, engines. Not to say the Ford engines are not good because they are great. They just aren't better and they cost more and they are more trouble for the home/shadetree/weekend warrior type like myself.

Forgive me for not seeing everything through blue oval glasses but I like Chevys and Fords as well as some Mopars but the Chevy small blocks are my favorite.

 

I'm sorry, a lot of you are living in the past. While I appreciate the attempted honesty, there is virtually no difference in building a Windsor or chevy any longer. Pick up any Summitt or Jeggs catalog and see for yourself.

Lunati Cams....$145 Ford or Chevy

Crane Timing gear/chain.....$99...Ford or chevy

after market deep sump pans.....dang!!! Chevy $50 cheaper

ARP bolt kit......chevy $20 bucks cheaper

Intake manifolds.....Chevy $50-$100 cheaper

SRP Forged pistons......$20-$50 cheaper FORD

edelbrock Performer heads....Depending on year Ford could be cheaper by $20 and I think TFS head are also cheaper for Ford.

Eagle H beam rods stock size is same, stroker ford $50 more.


I could go on but i think you get the picture.

 

Ivastang

Well, Im not going to debate page by page but I did open my summit to page 23

Federal Mogul bearings :

chevy 350 ..$27.12
Ford351w..$47.92 -- $51.12 for a cleveland,

Summit brand stroker crank
chevy..... $199.95 ..
Ford 351w -$549.95.

So Ivastang, I guess your argument could go both ways, personaly I think there is quite a bit of a difference with the cranks.
So I guess you get the picture too.

Also, I dont know where you shop, but here in NY I have about 4 to 5 different auto suppliers with in block of my shop, if I went in there and told them I needed some performance part for a chevy and the same part for a ford, I bet they tell me they need to order the ford part.

Listen, Im not bashing Fords here, if I didn't like them I wouldnt own 5 of them. But as I said "for my application" which is building Nascar featherlite modifieds and Late model race cars, we just cant open our summit catalogs and buy parts. I can look on one self here in the shop and see $2,000 worth of custom ground cams that have , maybe 2 to 3 dyno pulls on them that didn't work as well as we hoped, another words...junk, that was from one day of experimenting.

I agree, one could throw together a nice little street motor for around the same price as a chevy using catalog parts.
But when it comes to a getting over 500hp out of a DRY SUMP small block, Im going with the chevy.

And lastly, I appreciate your post saying..Hey Im 16 or 19 or what ever and I like v8's and cool cars and trucks. I figured that you did or you wouldnt be hanging around on this site.
But the majority of people between 16 and 25 don't think the same way you guys do. Now I know you can tell me that your friends all are the same as you and share your love for these things also.
But as I have stated and someone else in this post have said, we own businesses that deal with performance cars and trucks, the people that show up at my shop with street cars are 99% 4 cylinder ricers.

Now maybe it's because every one that has a v8 or a cool car and truck, can build them all by themselves and the kids with the burners can't... I dont know but I see a trend here, and no I dont live in a small town where all the old cars are recycled or handed down in the family.

You guys build your fords, heck build anything you got, Im all for it.
My friends thought I was on crack when I told them I was building a 350hp flat head. It cost a lot but it's cool as hell, and it sits in my all Ford coupe.

Let me reiterate one more time...For my business and my customers applications which includes reall race cars with motor rules, it is way cheaper to run a chevy than any other motor.

***** A.
waiting with my extinguisher for the flaming

 

You know, that's YOUR SHOP. Tell me that Roush or Yates or the dozens of east coast Ford specialty drag race shops couldn't build a 500HP Ford for close to the same $$$ as a chevy. BTW Jeggs has those bearings at $50 vs $65. And I can buy COMPLETE STROKER KITS from Ford specialty shops for around $1200 including crank, rods, bearings, pistons etc...You don't have to buy all your stuff from one place.

I didn't quite understand your pararagraph about the 16 or 17 year old or whatever.

The bottom line, as you've stated and what I think was the original intent of this topic, is that for your average Joe who wants a HP street motor or a competitive bracket car the cost diff between the venerable SBC and Windsor is negligible.

Heck, Joe Sherman, a reknowned chev builder, got 400horsepower out of a STOCK head 302 for $2500. He's who taught me to put 302/351 pistons in backwards.

Currently, the aftermarket supports the Windsor very close to what is available to brand X.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 22-Mar-02 AT 04:21 PM (EST)]>You know, that's YOUR SHOP.

First off, my shop builds chassis not motors. All my references were to what my customers spend on their motor programs.



Tell me that Roush or Yates or
>the dozens of east coast Ford specialty drag race shops
>couldn't build a 500HP Ford for close to the same $$$ as a
>chevy.

Yes THEY can.
But I doubt you can, unless you have a multi million dollar R&D facillity. Bottom line you pay for their r&d.




BTW Jeggs has those bearings at $50 vs $65. And I can
>buy COMPLETE STROKER KITS from Ford specialty shops for
>around $1200 including crank, rods, bearings, pistons
>etc...You don't have to buy all your stuff from one place.
>

Comparison shopping is good.



>I didn't quite understand your pararagraph about the 16 or
>17 year old or whatever.
>

At one point we were talking about the younger people and ther lack of interest in the v8's.

>The bottom line, as you've stated and what I think was the
>original intent of this topic, is that for your average Joe
>who wants a HP street motor or a competitive bracket car the
>cost diff between the venerable SBC and Windsor is
>negligible.

I'll agree with this based on an AVERAGE street motor or bracket car, in which case hp doesn't matter.




>Heck, Joe Sherman, a reknowned chev builder, got
>400horsepower out of a STOCK head 302 for $2500. He's who
>taught me to put 302/351 pistons in backwards.
>

Smart guy.


>Currently, the aftermarket supports the Windsor very close
>to what is available to brand X.

But not close enough, or this post wouldn't of been started in the first place.
Seems the majority of people still have the propensity to lean towards brand x, and in my opinion, its related to the cost. I have to agree with STAB and 46FORDTRUCK on this one.
Bottom line it is more cost efficient to build a chevy than a ford in a high performance application.

 

We'll just agree to disagree.

What's funny is the 2 guys you agree with have the "cutest" replies to the whole thread. I got a kick out of, "The windsor has only been around since "62 or so."

And the comment about how hard it is to build a Ford had me rolling. What the heck is different about checking clearances, torquing bolts and setting valve lash(the pedestal mount Fords can be easier or more difficult depending on the initial torque but most switch to stud mount rockers anyway)


I'll concede there is a price difference favoring Chevy but I guarantee at the level we're talking it's going to be a very small difference. Maybe $500 for a 400+ HP street motor.

Since around '86-'87 and the resurgence of high performance(thanks to the then 10 year old fox platform with Windsor power) there is as much Ford stuff out there as GM and at very comparable prices. Case in point; strictly GM aftermarket head mfgs. Brodix and AFR have jumped on the Windsor bandwagon.

I don't know the motor rules that you speak of but I know that Fords at WC level ALWAYS make more HP than GM's and are penalized by wing or other aero penalties. It's only when GM starts winning that they allow Ford back in by letting 'em adjust spoilers etc.


Getting off topic but maybe explaining the popularity of GM at the lower level NASCAR events is when a Ford dominates (introduction of Taurus and 8(?) wins in a row) NASCAR JUMPED on the Taurus to slow it down. Previously when the T-birds were getting spanked by the new Lumina, NASCAR waited 17 races spanning 2 seasons before letting the 'birds have less spoiler. Sour grapes??? Maybe, but it's what happened.

 

I would not bring up the words Nascar, Rousch, and Yates in the same zip code if I were you.

The Ford guys you mentioned
Robert Yates= 1 Championship
Jack Rousch= 0


Some Chevy guys
Rick Hendrick= 5
Richard Childress= 6
Junior Johnson= 6 (3 with Chevy 1 with Olds and 2 with Buick)

1970-present
Ford= 3 championships
Chevy= 18

So maybe Nascar is the wrong example to use when trying to explain to us "cute" (your word not mine) folks why Fords rule and Chevy sucks.
Maybe you'll tell us how it's because Nascar screws the poor Fords every year. No wait you already did that.

I think if you put a blue oval on a cat turd some people will try to tell you it makes 400hp.

 

>I would not bring up the words Nascar, Rousch, and Yates in
>the same zip code if I were you.
>
>The Ford guys you mentioned
>Robert Yates= 1 Championship
>Jack Rousch= 0
>
>
>Some Chevy guys
>Rick Hendrick= 5
>Richard Childress= 6
>Junior Johnson= 6 (3 with Chevy 1 with Olds and 2 with
>Buick)
>
>1970-present
>Ford= 3 championships
>Chevy= 18
>
>So maybe Nascar is the wrong example to use when trying to
>explain to us "cute" (your word not mine) folks why Fords
>rule and Chevy sucks.
>Maybe you'll tell us how it's because Nascar screws the poor
>Fords every year. No wait you already did that.
>
>I think if you put a blue oval on a cat turd some people
>will try to tell you it makes 400hp.




Who said chevy sucks???? Just said that there is not that much difference in cost and that Fords aren't any tougher or a bigger pain to put together. Is it more difficult to install a piston in a Ford? Are the bolts harder to turn? Maybe the chevy builders can't figure out which side of the motor the distributor goes in. Yup, it's tougher to order them TFS heads from Summit for the Ford motor. Or maybe the Wentworth bolt sizing on Fords that throws off the chev builder. I also heard Snap On and Craftsman charge more for tools if you use 'em on Fords.

Thanx for the NASCAR history lesson. Sort of makes my point. Where budget means nothing, Fords make more horsepower yet GM wins more championships. Kinda makes you wonder why they neuter Ford so much. Just like in the Glidden small block days where the Clevelands had to carry more weight. It's an X-file I tell ya.

Doesn't Roush clean up in the IMSA series?

Do you have the total wins for each brand in NASCAR?? Just curious.


This topic got outta hand. If the original poster would come back with his actual intent it may clear things up. I didn't think he was talking about dry sump NASCAR motors or any other full blown race motor.

Sorry for being redundant, but given any reasonable budget (3-5K? more?) I will build you a Windsor that will equal a bow tie. There is currently no great GM advantage for the hobbyist. And it certainly doesn't take any more effort or skill or machining to figure out a Ford compared to a chevy motor.

 

I have assembled and "built" many motors some for "racing" some for "street performance" some for my forklift.

Like Ivstang said there is no difference assembling , tourqe ft pounds on a chevy is still tourqe foot pounds on Ford, so that isn't or shouldn't be the deterrent, why you see many more chevys in old rods and customs....I admit..I don't know the answer to this.
The next guy I see in a nice old ford with a chevy motor in it, I will ask him why, and see what his answer is.


"Quote"
Sorry for being redundant, but given any reasonable budget (3-5K? more?) I will build you a Windsor that will equal a bow tie. There is currently no great GM advantage for the hobbyist. And it certainly doesn't take any more effort or skill or machining to figure out a Ford compared to a chevy motor.


Maybe the not so serious enthusiast, 3 to 5k difference is enough for him or her to go the way of chevy, I don't know.
But I for one could care less, Im not gonna butcher some Thunder Bolt to stick a chevy in it, just like my GTO & 442 have the original blocks in them. Which buy the way aftermarket parts are both more than chevy and ford. I guess it comes down to taste and personal preference. Maybe the average joe has been brain washed into believeing chey is the one and only.

I can't speak for them nor do I want too.
I don't even know why I'm arguing the chevy side, I dont own one and havent since I was 17. If I wanted to build a particular engine, it will get built regardless of price.
If the cost of "building" a motor scares them maybe their in the wrong hobby.

 

Spending a lot of time around hotrodders for years.
Regarding putting a 350 in a ford product:
Their feeling is the FORD car or truck has "Much More Styling"
than the older GM's.
They really do like the Ford for looks over the Gm carThey are also used to doing mechanical on Gm engines,and they admit "Parts are cheaper and more readily available".

The old Motorcraft dealer that I bought parts wholesale off of always said they only keep one maybe two of something in stock for a ford application.
Yet,the motorcraft parts that had a GM application they kept 5-6 of each on hand.
When I asked why they even had them in the first place,they said selling the off Make of vehicle parts was they lifeblood and since they were a wholesaler they didn't want the service people going somewhere else.

Here is a link to a web page for anyone who wants to ask first hand why they put Bow tie engines in Ford vehicles.

http://www.fsra.org/index.html

Dennis https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=1733&.jpg
[i][font color=red]Calgary,Alberta,Canada[/font][i]





[font color=blue]Please Don't Ask Me Any Tough Questions,
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78 F-150 429CJ,Silver, Explorer Pkg.
641/2-Mustang 260,Pre-World's Fair Car.
64-Fairlane500 S/C waiting for a 390-4spd.
68-Mustang 289-Sunlit Gold 80,892Mi
78-Buick LeSabre 403 4V
84 Volvo DL Wagon