Hey, now we are talking. I like this idea. Dig up the driveway, put a real footer in, and move the whole doorway out. This is a good idea I think. It gets rid of a lot of the destruction, and will be mostly construction.

 

Good idea on the utilization of the cantilever, which I did not see because of the shadow. One thought on that idea tho. A lot of cantilevered floor systems are built perpendicular to the main floor joists. If the floor joists run left to right as you face the garage doors, then the cantilevered joists are actually "stub" joists fastened in to the side of last set of joists ( a doubled up set) and then the overhanging joist is balanced over the garage door header. Most floor joist systems will run the same direction as your rafters, it just makes framing easier. If in fact this cantilever has joists "balancing" on the garage door headers, then you STILL have to leave in a support system for the cantiliver joist, because if you take out the existing door headers, the stub joists will then tranfer all the floor load to the doubled or tripled joist they are attached to and overload them, causing a bad scenario. SO, if the cantilever joist are in fact not a solid joist that run the length of the garage and hang out ( I doubt it, that would be make it a 28 foot joist system probaly) the moving out of the exterior wall under the cantilever will create another problem. Do some serious investigating and research on the load bearing facets of your floor system before knocking down and cutting walls out. just my 2 cents , good luck

 

I agree, that's an option.. If the wall was recessed in 6" to a foot from the outside of the second story wall, it would still retain most of the, "Ranch," style look that most of the neighboring houses probably have. Especially if an eve (little overhang) was built out to match the roof over the driveway on the bottom of the second story. Even a foot or two out would give the new garage door the recessed look the old one has.

One question would be is the span between the existing support beam and the location of the proposed wall going to be too far? I couldn't see what the floor joists looked like from the pics. They probably don't go the whole length of the garage. Usually, I've called up my city codes department with questions like that, given the span and joist info and they tell me yes or no, right over the phone. I don't know if it's like that everywhere.

 

You right on Howdy, I have found it a heck of lot easier to get the building inspector involved and let him help me thru some problems, than to do something half butted, and have him on my case. I have seen a lot of contractors try to snooker them and get by with shoddy work, but that only makes them harder to work with. Besides, most that I have worked with enjoy telling you how to do things right, its their job, and most of them love it. Cantilevers are tricky, back when I was building there was a percentage formula the building inspector used that would determine how much you could let the joists hang out , depending on the amount you have sticking to the inside of the house, joist size , so on. I have always found its better to go on and get the authorities having jurisdiction get involved, because they are going to drive by and catch you building on the front anyway, or a neighbor will call the city, if the homeowner doesnt. Better to be friends with the city officials than a foe, because they will have the LAST word on it .

 

Hi guys,

A lot more good info for me to think about. I will get the village involved right away because there is no way to hide doing this and I wouldn't want to chance it anyway. They get you real quick around here and sock it to ya if you don't have the permits and inspections.
I threw together a very quick and plain web site because I will be getting in touch with some people about this and want them to have a quick and easy way to see what I am talking about. The link given to me above with Don Pearman was outstanding and it sounds like I may get a chance to speak with him personally about my situation so that was the primary reason I made the page. You guys will get a better view of the pictures there though since it won't be cropped down like this forum does. Not dissing this forum though because if it wasn't for this I wouldn't have met all you fine people.
I'll keep you updated and if you have more things for me to ponder just post up.

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/dan_s_johnson/home.htm

Thanks,
Dan

 

the major issue you have is that the column that is sinking isn't surpported by anything, there should have been a footer under the column that should be buried 3-4' deep depending on code, so that leaves you with two option on like every one else was saying is a beam of some type that can span the whole distance, or the other option would be to temporally(sp?) support the load then to place a footer and a NEW column on top of the footer. the latar would be cheaper to do since it's a realitivly simple fix, if you were to replace the coumn with one long beam it'll cost more and you'll need to hire someone to do it unlike the first which you could do yourshelf in a weekend

 

Hi Dan,

If I worked for your building code folks, the first thing I would do when I came to see you would be to ask you to 'open it up'...meaning, let's take a look at what's 'sitting' on that beam...in the photo you posted with the tape hanging off the header, I noticed you had plywood for a ceiling...this weekend when you do a little more 'tearing out', take down a half or whole sheet of plywood out near that header so we can see what's going on...

My bet is that your floor joices run from the back of your garage across the garage doors and out to support the cantilever, a minimum of a 2x10 on 16centers but hopefully, 2x12's...we'll see this weekend when you do some more digging...

Either way, this should not be considered a weekend fix...by this I mean, you can, but you shouldn't try and jack the house back up all in one fell swoop...I believe you could cause more damage doing it too fast after 'years' of settling...you could end up with more than the cracked sheetrock and window that you mentioned before...

Now, being the 'young pup' that you are, I don't know what kind of working relationship you have with your insurance agent, but I would make an appointment with him/her and let them look over the situation also...As a contractor, I've even met with them for folks...your problem, if left unchecked, will cost them more money then if they just pay to have it fixed now...even if you get a 50/50 split with them, it's worth the conversation...and you can still do all the work yourself...

Anyways, get some new pics this weekend of the floor joices and we'll be able to help ya get thru this...you might as well take the siding and metal off of that center support also to see what's in there holding up the beam...

Brad

 

I was already tearing some stuff apart last night. I took the siding and flashing off the center support to see what was inside of that. I am not completely finished yet but it looks like 4 2x4s with a 1" sheet probably about 8-10 inches wide at the front connecting them all together. When I started prying off the front 1" sheet I noticed it was starting to bow a lot and that is the only piece that is on the driveway that isn't cracked. This piece has a little more pressure on it than it should from everything else sinking so I decided not to tear it off. My reason for wanting to take it off was to get a better look at the base support. I know it can't be adding that much support but I don't want to make it worse so I left it on. I also noticed that when I was prying off some of the flashing on the sides that the 4 2x4s actually moved a bit at the base. I don't know that it is supported much at all at this point. It wasn't like I could kick it over or anything but I wouldn't have thought it should move at all.
Also what is a "floor joice"? I have heard of joists. Is this just a different term for the same thing or is this something else? I will be tearing down some of the ceiling drywall to see what is going on there over the weekend.

 

Correct, joists, from a very young age I've always called them joices, easier for me to say I guess... sorry for the confusion, but they should run from the back of your garage to the front and cantilever out to catch that upstairs wall...you'll find out this weekend...

From what you say with the '1 inch sheathing' on the out side of the 2x4's, that's what's holding the four of them together...unless they are nailed or bolted together, the sheathing gives them their strength to hold the weight...also, I'm going to assume here, that is makes the 2x4's(3 1/2 inches) and the sheathing(1 inch) a total of 4 1/2 inches of post, and would be the same width as the header above, most likely three 2x10's(8 1/2 inches in your one photo) again, 4 1/2 inches when nailed together ...this would allow siding/brick/metal wrapping to go around all of it smoothly...anyways, best leave that sheathing on until you have formed a plan to take that puppy out and get a good footing under there...there's quite a bit of weight on it...

Personally, I would like to see what's right above that column/post and then I can shoot you what I would do if I was in your shoes, let us know when ya posts some more pics...

Brad

 

> That support that you see in between the 2 garage doors rests upon the
> driveway from what I can see.
...
> My house was the 2nd one built in the subdivision so it is entirely
> possible that they screwed it up

It is hard to tell from the pictures exactly what is what, sort of dark, though it looks and sounds like to me this is what happened. The house was probably designed without a garage, they removed what they had to build a garage under the second story, someone did a deflection test, it failed, so the solution and quick fix was to install a column on top of the garage floor. The reason it is sinking now is it has 2-3 tons of house pushing down in a small area on 3000 psi concrete and it is sinking/deflecting because the base underneath it is not strong enough to support that load and there is no rebar in that area.

If you take everything apart, it is probably nailed together 2x6s as a beam and if it has sunk two+ inches already, the wood has started to crack and the nails have started to come out.

What I would do is remove all the plywood from the ceiling and everything else so you can actually see the construction. I am willing to bet the 2x4 walls are not blocked (was not a required code back then until they found garages doing a diamond when a wall failed - especially when a vehicle hit it) in the garage area.

At the very least, I think you will find yourself digging new footers and installing at least two more lolly columns before getting rid of the central one or repairing it.

I would get an engineer in there, pay him the $500-$1000 and see about moving the support beam and columns a foot over to the left so you could fit your truck in easily. That way you avoid having to drop the garage ceiling any more so the truck fits in height wise. It is probably the easiest way to do the repair too. It lets you do a proper footing and repair without touching the current structure. Just shore up (without lifting!) the current one with screw up lolly columns and nail them to whatever is there and then lag them to the current floor.

An engineer might be able to design it so the larger door is higher too if the main support beam is moved over.

$0.02

 

Sounds like he needs to be careful when stripping some of this stuff away. I am thinking when the column started failing to support the weight, every other piece of lumber is under some stress or strain, and somehow may be contributing some support. Do you think that possibly even the plywood in the ceiling is helping somewhat to hold the upper floor in place? Do you guys have a suggestion of something quick and dirty he could wip up to make it a little safer to work on?

 

Wow, have not checked on this for a day or two.

Be very careful if that support post seems to be doing something funny. I have some timbers here you could use, but shipping would be a bit much.

What you need to do is shore up on either side of the existing center post. One way - cut a couple 2 foot long 2x's and lay them down about a foot, foot and a half either side of the support post, parallel to the door, (you want some support at the base on the concrete and be able to close the door when you're done.) Then either get some good clean grained 4x4 or nail 2 or 3 2x2's together for support beams.Cut them just a hair long to fit between your header and the short 2x's you have on the floor. You should have to pound them in so they don't fall out, but not so tight you start lifting anything. Picture a couple jack stands taking the stress off your center support. I'm saying two supports, because there might be a butt splice in the center of your header, right above your post. They shouldn't have done it that way, but no job is so important that a little safety can't be exercised - and they forgot your footer, so who knows?

On edit--I'll try to explain a little. I would space the supports the distanced I stated, so I could go rent a diamond blade concrete saw and cut a hole big enough to be able to dig down 4 feet and pour my 2'x2'x12" footer. You might want to shore up more - 2x6's for the posts if you want, it's just wood. Once it's structurally safe you can tear things apart further to see what you're up against. It saves time to plan ahead.

 

You can use those screw type posts available at the home box store rather than 4x4's. Then you have the ability to adjust the height to jack up the structure.

 

Eric has a good thought on this Dan, purchase a couple of those screw or 'jack' posts, what ever they might be called in your area...they are made of steel, with a steel plate for the top and bottom...you can then use a wrench to tighten them into place and begin lifting the weight off of that center support...

We've used them in basements to straighten out sagging floors and replace headers, and in your case, they would add the safety your situation needs...measure the distance from the concrete to the header about two feet on either side of your center post and purchase the correct height of post...you might want to figure into your measurement a 12 to 24" block of 4x4 or 4x6 at the bottom to sit the posts on...this would 'spread' the weight out on the concrete

Like I said in that last post, don't do anything else with that center post until you're ready to remove it, lot of weight on that puppy...

 

Right on guys. That was exactly what I was thinking and I believe the term for them is lolly columns. I already looked at them at Menards and they are actually much cheaper than I thought (~$20 rated at 15,000 lbs). The big ones only adjust maybe 3 inches though so I either have to buy the right size or shim it up. There are probably more expensive ones that adjust more but I didn't find them yet. Since I have to raise it a couple inches I am probably better off buying a few of these and raising it slowly over time. Renting them is probably just as expensive or more since it will take some time. I have read somewhere that the maximum to raise something like this is 1/4" per day so I would need a week for that and then I would need the supports while working on the footer or new beam of which I haven't decided yet.
If I go the footer route I would need to cut the concrete driveway. Someone mentioned a diamond cutter or something to that effect. What does this look like and can anyone just rent these things? Is it big and bulky where I couldn't easily use it around this small area or is it more of a circular saw type size?
Also, when I do this I am going to have to have the garage doors open or off for some time. Does anyone have any good ideas for me as to sealing out the garage area from intruders. I do not live in a bad neighborhood but I wouldn't want to come home and see some of my fun stuff missing. This would be the case if I jacked it from the header now and just poured the new footer. If I did the whole new beam approach I could jack it from outside on the canteliver if the joists go all the way through as mentioned before. I suppose I could do it this way for both but that is a bit more work and it would be a bit harder to fix the supports. Do you recommend drilling lead anchors in the driveway to hold them?
Just to clarify...the ceiling is drywall not plywood. I think someone made an educated guess based on the color but it is because it is unfiinished and they didn't make the stuff white back then.