I never said modern convieniences are bad, sorry. I do happen to think that any improvements and attempts to clean things up are good, even if there is a long way to go yet. What in the heck is wrong with that? So, your definition of Whacko is about finding and utilizing ways to improve quality and longevity of life? Even given your example of Alar, no its not the potent killer once touted. But it is still considered a carcinogen. Even given the fact that it is a relativly small risk, I avoid ingesting substances classified as a carcinogen, it just makes sense. At least it makes sense for the people interested in living long and healthy live vs accepting avoidable diesese and early death. Got an better ideas?

 

Man, after reading this post I am tempted to go out and let the huge bottle of R12 that my dad has out into the air.

Then again, maybe someone at Nasa will track me down, because of the pollutants. Meanwhile things that matter go un-noticed.

Really though, this thread is

 

well, the dumb question I have is:

How can R12 be so deadly to the ozone if it is heavier than air?!!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!

The ozone is way up in the sky. When R12 is released into the air, it falls to the ground because it is HEAVIER than AIR. If you breathe in R12, you have to stand on you head to let it out of your lungs, b/c your lungs are able to pump it out of your body, so you have to use gravity. If anyone can prove to me how it can effect the ozone (couple thousand miles in the air) when it is LAYING on the ground, I'll give them a dollar.

Now, I am not trying to say that R12 is not deadly for the environment. It is some bad stuff when you light it on fire (R12+FIRE=mustard gas=bad for you).

 

Breman, theres a copy of the World Meteorological Organization's report "Scietific Assessment of Ozone Depletion from the Global Ozone Research and Monitoring Project that discusses the fact thay CFC's are heavier than air, so they must not be able to reach the ozone layer, which is a Myth. It discusses the effects of wind and CFC's ability to reach into the statosphere with these global currents. This is a global effort at a improvement for everyone, I'm glad someones making an effort at improvements.

 

yea I read about the myths associated with about cfc heavier, than air capabilitys, and how volcanos can't be the problem at all, the double talk had me, and my wife rolling with laughter. lets see volcanos only blast their ozone depleting gases upto approx 10km into the air which is the troposhpere, and since those chemicals are approx 3 times heavier than air they would have to stay air born for approx 3-5 yrs to have any chance of reaching the stratosphere, but cfc's which are approx 5 times heavier than air released at ground level can be blown around, and reach the stratosphere within a very short time. Oh, and the only published data on the thickness of the ozone layers is on years that it is a little thinner but look how many years are missing wondering what it was doing in those years. Oh, and the obscure "NZ scientist" that published the paper on how the ozone actually replentishes itself is actually at a Calif univ, but had his funding cut off by the goverment because his theories didn't fit the EPA "facts"

 

These arent "EPA" facts, this information was compiled by the World Meterological Organization, Global Ozone Research and Monitoring Project, Geneva 1998. They have figures for every year listed in their data so whats missing?

This entire R12 project has been supported and funded by over 150 Nations of the World. If that one scientists theroies are correct, then why are 150 Nations backing these scientific facts pertaining to CFC's instead of his theroy? I suppose you think that Dupont is buying off these 150 nations too?

 

Hey, Monsterbaby, don't you just love it when some enviro-whacko gets going about how everyone is destroying the atmosphere, when they have some ultra modified engine in there rig, that burns 6 times the amount of fuel a stock engine would? And then, they have another rig with the same setup? Then, they post pictures of both in their gallery? Man, sounds like someone wants everyone else to quit using stuff so they can have more for themselves. Hippocrates. Rock on, Monsterbaby.

 

So camo, your interpetation of your fondly used termonology "enviro-whacko" is anyone who supports any changes that could possibly benefit all of us from improving the enivornment? So, you dont believe there are any environmental changes nessasary and you also stated that clear cutting is a healthy viable use of land? Any idea how whacko that sounds? It just shows ignorance as to the facts.

There are alot of people out here that support changes that are directed at the good of all, its self preservation. Whats wrong with that? You like to come on here and make some blanket statement that if someone supports changes and uses modern convineniences they're whacko hippocrites, but yet, thats the only thing you say without anything to back your statements up, it just comes accross as being rather clueless as to the world in which you live. Yes, I use and enjoy all modern convieniences, so what? I also can see that there is alot of room for improvement in our world and support changes to benefit all of us.

By the way, I'm glad you like my modifed engine, although its fairly obvious your knowldege on the subject of high performance engines is par to your knowlegde on environmental issues, as it gets about 6 MPG better than the stock engine I pulled out. So whos a hippocrite? You've brought only another point of blather from the peanut gallery!

 

Ok guys lets not resort to name calling, yes I disagree with 94f150, and appreciate the support on this, as I don't know him personally I can't resort to name calling, we just have a disagreement, and probably always will, and will still try, and convert each other but thats what makes this country great.
to 94F150, your mention of the little things is like a doctor giving a brain cancer patient an aspirin, it may make you feel better but doesn't do a thing for the root cause, one major plant in your area will pollute more in one month, than all the cars in the county will do in a year, but they can't clean them up because that would cost too much, so instead they try, and make us reduce the amount of pollution a regular person makes, so they can go on polluting and pointing to how much better everything is, and we pay for it, and they pad thier bottom line some more, same things with the airlines no epa mandates how much they can pollute so why would they bother to clean up thier act and they pollute much more than cars ever did, and yes alot of these planes are older but they change the engines quit often actually, and if I take my 77 F150, and put a 92 engine in it I have to met the emissions reqiurment for the newer engine so why don't they? money thats why.
And for your aurgument that the enviromental laws are increasing our life spans, I have two issues; first if that was true then the life expectancy of americans would have taken a dip in the 60s, 70s, and 80s but they have been steadily increasing since the 1800s, this has more to do with medical advances than the enviroment. and secondly; we will live longer, so instead of sitting in a nursing home drooling on myself for 5-10yrs I can do it for 25-30yrs oh boy I can hardly wait.

 

Quit arguing.

 

Here where I live, the fire department does training at the airport. Jet fuel is burned in a shallow depression, and they practice putting it out. The plume of smoke produced easily reaches 1,500 ft. above ground level. It makes more pollution in 3 minutes than my truck running for 10 years.(5 yrs old, 33,000 miles) I hear not one whimper from the EPA, asking or telling them to stop. Why not? Some people in the Northwest are advocates of tearing down 4 dams on the lower Snake river. I put forth the idea in a letter to the editor of the local newspaper, that there should be a list to sign up and take your house off of the power grid. When enough people signed up to equal the output of a dam, then it should be removed. Heck, I even volunteered to keep a list of the names of those signing up. I recieved not one response. So, I just have to assume (and you know how I hate to do it) those very ones screaming for the dam removal refuse to limit there consumption, while asking/demanding that all others do so. I hear people getting up on a soap box, claiming they love the earth and support changes in the way things are done, but they still use electricity, gasoline, plastics, fertilizers, the list goes on and on. If these folks really wanted to make a difference, and there are enough to do so, they should stop using resources and show an example. BUT, they do not, and therefore, one cannot take any of them seriously.

 

Once again, thanks, CWB. I know I can always get the straight dope from you.

 

Camo, now that is something I can definatly agree with, infact I watched a news article that showed the houses the logging protesters lived in, and they were almost to a T all frame houses, no earthen huts just wooden houses, I also had a PETA member tell me how evil I was for raising cattle, but in the coarse of the flight (that was one long flight they seated a PETA person, next to a feedlot operator, great seating arrangment) I found out he was a diabetic, and used insulin, he got real upset when I informed him that insulin is made from cattle. And the best one I seen was when I was in the logging industry, and watched an activist giving a speech in a forest area, claiming that we had to stop the logging in this old growth timber, as this was one of the last old growths left, he was giving his speech while standing on a stump, that had been cut 125yrs earlier, and of coarse we had to stop because the spotted owl only nests in old growth timber, and Kmart signs in roseburg oregon.

 

Great!People for the eating of tasty animals? Boy that dam thing hits a nerve. I am amazed at the fools that think the Snake and Colorado should be freed up. Go be a fanatic in some other country. We're full up here.

 

Hey monster, like I said there is alot of evidence to back all of this as I have presented, wow, the support of 150 nations of the world, but yet your support appears to be lacking that kind of clout. Sure, theres always going to be alot of things needing improvement, but as long as poeple are unwilling to do anything, then I'm afaird that the prospects for the future are quite dismal. Now, on your view on aging, have you not seen the individuals who have avoided the nasty stuff where they can, eat right and exercise? There are some out there, and they are pretty incredible. One guy died in his 90's in a surfing accident, not too bad I would say. How about Jack LaLane, no drooling there. There are alot of people that support no changes, its the easy way out, many make no changes and dont believe that something is really "bad" for you if it doesnt knock you over dead on the spot, they're generally the ones living in the nursing home and drooling on themselves and croaking at a fairly young age, humm, maybe some correlation between life style choices and the consequences of chronic debilitating dieseases that go with those choices? Theres no secrects as to how life style choices affect quality of life and the association with many of the chronic diseases.

I do believe that every little bit helps. The indians in Costa Rica have a admirable saying and a a bit of a twist on how we look at the future. I'm not certain if this is the exact quote, bit it does paraphrase it. "We did not inherit the earth, we have only borrowed it from our children".

So, anyhow, I rather enjoy this debate also, but I do agree that we wont change each others minds on these issues. Maybe if I'm traveling thru your neck of the woods sometime I'll see if your in a mud drag and root you on, those are a lot of fun, have you won many?

camo, why do you insist on repating the same thing over and over and over? I can see why you got zero response from the paper, lol. Yes, I use modern conviniences and I also try to do what I can to make things better, any respones to this, or just the canned response of you cant do both? Get real.


Thanks cwb, its always nice to have someone use the quote feature and then change it to suit their own agenda.