hey everybody. i'm 18 years old and still in school. i've always been handy and excel in trimwork. i've done work for family and friends. through recommendation i'm doing a job in this huge house (house is probably worth about $700k). i've done multiple piece crown molding before and i can cope the inside corners perfectly so i know i can do the job. the problem is that i have to give an estimate. i've proveded some pictures of the key spots and i put them in my gallery if you'd like to see. there is two piece crown in two rooms. the front entrance is getting 3 piece and the ceiling is about 25 ft high so i'll have to rent bakers scaffolding. the three piece also goes around a small inside curve (picture in gallery) so i have to add that to the cost. i'm also putting a small wall w/a door to block off the hallway.

do any of you pros have estimating tips? do you charge per linear foot and for each corner. how much would you add for that inside curve and the part that is 25 ft up? any tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

I've painted houses like that and it looks like most of your work is going to be custom. It's hard to figure what the time will be exactly, because the work is, well, custom.

Then there's the fact that the house is finished. You're not going in there after the sheetrock and before the paint, like a normal new construction trim carpenter. There will be stuff to move, carpets and floors to cover and probably a few scrapes on the walls that will need to be fixed. On new construction you can work fast, but on this you'll have to walk on eggshells - you can't just track sawdust all over the place - that takes time.

You got the job through recommendation and that's the best. Even if you know these guy well I'd think about a contract, but that's up to you. Time and material would probably be the easiest way. If what they want is a REALLY good job, they won't mind paying. If you've got the quality part down, but haven't done it enough to know what your speed is, T&M can save you some heartache.

This could be a real signature job for you. I would charge them about $25/ hr + materials/rentals - plus?.. (That would be a bargain for them if they want quality work and you want a future referral.)
I usually try and work up a rapport with a customer with this type of house. Get a feel if they want quality and will pay OR are they strapped with a mortgage and need cheap work to get the resale up. It makes a difference; you'll find the better you get, the more you'll say, "No Thanks."

Good luck..

 

thanks for the reply howdy. it would be nice to charge per hour, but they want a total estimate. i have no idea how i'm going to judge that. i dont want to overcharge them and i also dont want to winde up making 7 bucks an hour in the end. oh and about the owners: they are loaded. no mortgage here haha.

 

I write estimates daily as an insurance adjuster. My estimating program with 2003 Craftsman database shows a price of $3.75 a liner foot for 3 1/2" paint grade pine with no location adjustment for your area. (I'm in Mississippi) I would jack that price up in the area where there is additional work due to height. Height allowance = additional cost. This price also does not reflect any cost to move/cover furniture, etc. Write the estmate room by room to reflect the cost per room.

Don't know if this will help or not. An esimate is an estimate. If I use the prices from the program I have to have someone that will do the work for the price the program spits out. Most of the programs are not very accurate on alot of prices. Some high and some low. The programs are a guidline and I adjust the prices where needed.

 

You might try talking to the owners and ask them if you can give them a very rough estimate, but still charge them by the hour. One bit of advice i can give you is to make you estimate a little high. Then when you are done you can have the bill be less than the estimate. That will make them alot happier than if the bill is the same as the estimate, or worse the bill is higher than the estimate.

Chris

 

Like Chris was saying, you could always go a little high. T&M is accepted practice. Just have to figure how long it will take and give them a written estimate. Little things happen that shouldn't be billed to the customer, keep good records of dates and times.

If you have a rough estimate of how long it will take, figure how much per hour, materials, rental, ect. Take that number and add 20% - you should be safe. Take a realistic look at the curves and other custom work, time wise - if the homeowner could do it, they would - you should be paid for your skill. Make it clear you'ld be happy to do add-ons, but it would be extra. (Unless they agree to time and material.)

You're in a good position. You aren't bidding against anyone, it's a word of mouth job, and it doesn't sound like the check won't clear. My rule of thumb on these jobs is: don't rip them off, but don't treat it like a charity case either.

 

JESSFACTOR:

I live in NJ just over the bridge from Philly and do alot of remodeling and general construction work including a ton or crown. I know my pace and I estimate accordingly 1 man 2 days / 1 man 5 days. The going rate in my neck of the woods is $35.00 - $40.00 per hour and if you are good you will stay busy and make nice money. I generally make $350.00 $500.00 a day. This type of rate keeps me competitive and also helps with missed days due to weather, slow delivery of materials and customers ability to decide on materials. Don't be afraid to go a little high on your time estimate those curves can be tricky

Estimate your materials + rental equipment + your time = PROFIT

Michael......

 

i live right outside of philly. just as a ballpark: what would you charge for a 12x12 room w/two piece crown. how about the same w/three piece. this really sucks. i find the work comes naturally to me, yet i've spent hours trying to figure out how much to charge. estimates stink. also: whatdo you think is a good price for the wall i'm putting in. its blocking off a 4ft wide hallway and will have a door. i have to rock it and tape it to match the existing walls and put the necessary trim on, like baseboard and door trim on both sides. its really straight forward, but i hear people charge a nice penny for something that simple. my fear is overcharging. i really enjoy doing this stuff and am not out to rip people off.

 

One thing I would like to point out to you,from experience,be careful,check with your state laws to make sure you can give a written estimate and a written contract.I have been burned so many times,MOSTLY BY WEALTHY PEOPLE,who do know the laws,let you do all the work,and then say,sorry I am only going to give you a couple hundred dollars,ON A LARGE JOB WORTH THOUSANDS,because I know you are not licensed.One was a complete kitchen remodel,I bid 4K on the labor,completed the job,both he and his wife were thrilled with their new kitchen,comes time to pay me,he hands me $800 and says that is all that he is paying me because,allthough I AM a journeyman carpenter,I am not a licensed contractor.I take him to court,the judge says he is RIGHT,Says I should give this turd $200 back,because in Michigan you can not charge more than $600 without a contractors license.This has happened to me so many times that for one I DONT TRUST THE RICH,and two I went and took the tests to get said contractors license so they can not burn me again,ask yourself this.If they are rich,why dont they just hire a contractor?And if they are friends,you would be surprized at how fast a friendship can end when it comes to money.And when I give an estimate the formula I use is
if I am charging say $40 per hr for ground floor work,it goes up $20 for every 8ft of scaffold,and if you rent scaffold,try and get locking wheels too,makes it easier to move around and wont damage their floors.PS some of the specialty trim carpenters around here charge $85 an hour! what amazes me is They get it!

 

oooppps wrong kind of trim,,, sorry bye have fun seeya

 

If you absolutely have to give a written estimate, make sure you at least cover all your "known" costs. Call the rental store and get the price for the scaffold. Add up the scaffold rental, nails, wood, tarps, tape, as well as any other supplies you know you'll use. Figure out an hourly rate that you would be happy with and make an educated guess on how long the job will take. This is a process that will only get easier as you do more jobs and get some experience with "pacing your time". I would imagine even professional contractors bid some jobs high and some too low. When we bid service work at our industrial equipment shop, we also have the disclaimer at the bottom of the quote: "Estimate may very +/- 10%". This at least gives you a little more of a "fudge" factor.

On edit: My sister is trying to start a decorative painting business in a small town in Kansas and she is struggling with the "bid" process. One thing she doesn't always consider is the time she spends bidding the work, talking with the customer, going back and forth to the job, and time spent rounding up the materials. All that is time that is tied to the project; if you're doing that stuff, you can't be anywhere else.

 

I looked at the PA web site and can't find if you need to be licensed there. The Contractors Board in my state has been around so long, it just seems strange they don't have it in Idaho and other states..

An estimate is just that, an estimate. The customer is looking for just a rough idea of what it should cost. It should state right on the paper that it's an estimate.

A price quote on a contract is final, in most cases. The customer expects to write a check for that amount. (Things like add ons and such can change the amount. If you mess up on a quote - ooops!)

I've worked developments where there's a house a week being finished, (also done a house a DAY, quit doing those), in the $170K to $250K range. In those, each sub has a week to do what they have to do, depending on job. So the trim guys have a week to do trim, then the painters come in and have a week. Everything is sceduled closely and you have to have it done for the next guy. There are multiple houses going at once. On these jobs you usually bid on a square foot or linear foot basis so the general can figure his costs off the plans. They don't have a lot of time to wait for individual pricing. (Hint - when you get a set of plans from a new gen. make sure you measure and not just go off the stated square footage. The shady characters can drop that number.)

I started doing a few of the tour homes every year, and then the big monsters started coming, $400K to 1 Mil+ range. Totally different environment. For example: I went to bid stain and laquer on a staircase. Solid Mahogany, curved, full panel. There were no 90 deg. angles and EVERYTHING was curved. Just the wood came to $16k. Two guys that had a specialty company worked on it for 5 weeks. I was told completion time on it would be between 3 weeks and 2 months. For them, it was T&M. They gave the customer a rough estimate and went from there. I talked to the customer and told him it would take a helper and I 3 or 4 days to stain and the normal 3 coat laquer and that's what I'd work the estimate on. He said to figure it on a week and a half - he wanted it good.

There's no hard and fast rule for estimates. You could do a few things. Figure how long it will take to do just the basic crown and figure your hourly. Then figure the price of materials for just that crown. Multiply the price by two and see if that number is close to the hourly figure, number wise. (Try this for your door/wall, too. 2x material for labor +.)

If you can figure out a price for the basic crown great. Materials probably should be figured at cost, (when you start doing volume and get big discounts - that's where the profit kicks in. Figure your rental costs and either have the store deliver, figure an hourly to pick it up yourself or tack on 15% or so.

Then try to get a rough estimate of how long the custom work will take.

Once you have a rough figure written down, you can call the customer. Tell them something like: I just about have the estimate worked out. It should cost about $____ for the crown in these rooms. The curves and 3 piece crown are really custom and I'd really like to figure them at T&M, so I can make them look great! I'm thinking it will take ____ hrs/days to do the custom at___ dollars/hr. Give or take. The whole job should take ____ days. Is this what you had in mind? Great! I'll write up the estimate and fax it over, so you guys can look it over.

At this point can figure if he really needs three piece molding or maybe he'll want 3 piece thoughout the house. A lot of rich customers know nothing about the trades and how much work it takes to do the special stuff, but they know money. With an estimate they feel comfortable.

You can always bid a little high and work your way down, but it's really hard to bid low and try to get more later.

 

wow. that was a perfect explanation. i guess i was looking for too much of an exact figure w/the estimate. i think the T&M is a good idea for the curve. i was having a lot of trouble figureing out the cost for that because i dont know how long it will take. thanks for taking the time to write that.