Originally posted by RRMike
I didn't call them an ally. I merely pointed out that they are a nuclear power and a muslim nation. One you propose to start dropping nukes on.

Pakistan has been an ally of the US....off and on... In the 50's their first ruler said Pakistan was the Us' "most allied ally". It backed the US against the USSR in the Cold War and was instrumental in helping us supply Afganistan rebels during the USSR-Afganistan conflict. Post 9-11 has been iffy, though.

 

I agree. Most allies are self-motivated, be it by trade, military assistance, financial aid, internal politics or whatever rows their boat at any particular time. One notable difference about whom we consider allies and the way China approaches it seems to be geographic. China concentrates on immediate border allies for defense purposes and openly buys other affiliations it requires without rationalization. A cultural difference based on historical longevity and experience? Japan also uses that same practice to a certain extent (much easier for a series of islands the size of California).

 

After reading this entire thread- i have yet to read the link- it seems to me that China is going to go thru an industrial revolution much the same as Europe did a couple hundred years ago. Doesn't it also seem likely that those workers who are making low wages will eventually want a little more? More money, more benefits? Isn't that pretty much how our own country's unions were formed? This whole conversation has been very interesting, but it seems like you have forgotten one fundamental idea: Are Chinese workers happy making $1/day
(or whatever low wage they make)?

 

Nope. It's human nature to want more. I think they'll eventually follow on the trail we blazed.

This post ties beautifully with my last post in the "making a profit" thread.

Kannata

 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by stu37d
After reading this entire thread- i have yet to read the link- it seems to me that China is going to go thru an industrial revolution much the same as Europe did a couple hundred years ago. Doesn't it also seem likely that those workers who are making low wages will eventually want a little more? More money, more benefits? Isn't that pretty much how our own country's unions were formed?

Actually, if you look at the history of US unionization, you'll see that it was the Communist Party that fueled (read funded) unionization in the Coal Mining Industry. Wouldn't it be ironic if it was Capitalists that fueled unionization in a communist state? I guess what goes around comes around...eventually.

This whole conversation has been very interesting, but it seems like you have forgotten one fundamental idea: Are Chinese workers happy making $1/day
(or whatever low wage they make)?

Of course they're not. There are many, many wealthy Chinese and an ever-increasing middle class. As I posted before, we have a $1.2Billion positive trade balance with China on luxury vehicles such as Cadillacs and Mercedes. The demand for vehicles for China's domestic market is expected to exceed the US' demand (over 10Million) by 2025. They can't be buying all of these cars while making $1/day.

 

Good point, but didn't it say in the earlier posts that the Chinese workers are paid low wages? I'm talking about the majority of the workers who want to have a healthy family and not have to live with their adult children when they get old and have no retirement to speak of. I absolutely respect the work ethic of the Chinese- something we could learn from in this country- but how long can you be a dedicated "team player" and not be compensated for it?

 

That depends on how many replacement workers are lined up behind you ready to take your place on the 'team'.

China fully intends to raise the standard of living for most of the country as part of their long-range planning. That dovetails nicely into expanding their internal consumer market. It'll take some smoking computers to calculate what the GNP would be at say a standard developed country 50-60% factor of internal transactions making up that GNP. As mentioned in another thread, I see Walmart branded vehicles in our future, manufactured in China.

 

Yes, the Chinese are paid LOWER wages, but that's a relative thing. They have lower expectations and lower cost goods, too. As for them living with their adult children when they retire, I see that as a good thing. If the US adopted this practice (as we had done in the past), our society would be much better off. I will never put my mother in an old folks home and I doubt my kids would do the same with me. Family comes first, always, in my family. We will never abandon our family and let strangers take care of family.

 

You're absolutely correct. I'm at an age where I'm watching peole slam the old folks into retirement homes and assisted living, where they don't seem to last long after being somewhat abandoned. My wife performed volunteer religious services at retirement homes for a number of years and told stories about children living in the same town visiting parents once a month, often skipping months. Lots of sadness there and, to me, more destruction of our moral fibre than any of the conventional sins.

The Chinese, even those here in the US and other countries outside of China, place a very high value on extended family. Their incomes and investment funds are most often co-mingled and they tend get a lot of mileage out of a dollar. The Chinese I've known over the years have another trait that would serve Americans well, they abhor personal debt.

 

As Yammamoto said when he was ordered to attack Hawaii, "we are awakening a sleeping giant" . That's what Clinton did when he declared China , most favorable trading nation, for millions in election donations. Judas for a few pieces of silver. Other than that, he was just an embarrassment to the office. One reason China can sell its junk products to Americans cheap because they spend little in R&D because stupid Amerlicans will buy anything cheap. Americans buy the junk because they " won't use it much, it will last".. Maybe so, but they are stabbing their American neighbors in the back .
We have property Waaaay out in the sticks in Texas, N.M. and Az. and I have been approached to sell to Chinese immigrants. They are allowed free range if they say they are coming over with a business and employees. Their employees are a bunch of unemployed family and they are buying up cheap property and just waiting. I want to sell it , but not that bad. I predict in 50 or less, years, Chinese will be our second language. I'm glad I won't be around to see it.

 

Jerrybo66,

Nixon is credited with 'awakening' China with his famous trip to meet with Mao Tse-tung. As a result of that trip and following negotiations the US Trade Embargo against China was lifted, PRC was invited to join the UN while Taiwan was expelled from the UN and the US established diplomatic and trade liaisons with China. US and UN recognition of China prompted start-up investment capital flowing into China through Hong Kong and Taiwan with PC components becoming China's first big consumer products in the '80s, though marked 'Made in Taiwan/Hong Kong'. The rest is current history.

Clinton moved for most favored trading status for China under pressure from US business interests, nothing else. It was required to enable US importers to take advantage of China's ability to inexpensively finance exports on the order/shipping/distribution leg.

Japan, during their initial industrial development after WWII, went through the same quality control issues China experienced. China is now producing complex products at quality levels equal to Japanese efforts and often surpassing US quality as our remaining domestic manufacturers cut quality in an attempt to offset Chinese production cost advantages.

Holding property until cash is required for other ventures is always a good plan, be the landholder Chinese or other nationality as it increases in value unless in the path of our continually expanding western drought.

 

Originally posted by georgedavila
Jerrybo66,

Nixon is credited with 'awakening' China with his famous trip to meet with Mao Tse-tung. As a result of that trip and following negotiations the US Trade Embargo against China was lifted, PRC was invited to join the UN while Taiwan was expelled from the UN and the US established diplomatic and trade liaisons with China. US and UN recognition of China prompted start-up investment capital flowing into China through Hong Kong and Taiwan with PC components becoming China's first big consumer products in the '80s, though marked 'Made in Taiwan/Hong Kong'. The rest is current history.

Are you sure about this? From my dealings with Taiwanese people, they hate the PRC and don't want to have anything to do with Mainland China. I can't imagine them helping by investing in the PRC. I can see how Hong Kong is providing capital, especially since Hong Kong was given back to the PRC.

Clinton moved for most favored trading status for China under pressure from US business interests, nothing else. It was required to enable US importers to take advantage of China's ability to inexpensively finance exports on the order/shipping/distribution leg.
You're correct that it was Clinton who pushed for the reinstatement of MFN status to the PRC. While you may say it was in response to business pressure, some of us believe it was the result of "monkey business". If you don't think that Clinton's ChiCom contributions influenced his actions, read up on the assault weapon ban and how Clinton made his ChiCom buddies $Millions in a few weeks by allowing shipments of SKS "Assault rifles" already in transit to be exempted from the newly enacted law.

Japan, during their initial industrial development after WWII, went through the same quality control issues China experienced. China is now producing complex products at quality levels equal to Japanese efforts and often surpassing US quality as our remaining domestic manufacturers cut quality in an attempt to offset Chinese production cost advantages.
Agreed. In some areas, their quality is world class. In others, they're terrible, such as steel quality.

Holding property until cash is required for other ventures is always a good plan, be the landholder Chinese or other nationality as it increases in value unless in the path of our continually expanding western drought.

When it came to Japanese and Arab real estate investment frenzies, it was a good idea to sell when the dollar was at a high vs the Yen. When the Yen reversed and the dollar strengthened, the Japanese and Arabs lost their shirts on US real estate.

 

When it comes to money and commerce, politics are secondary to most Chinese; mainland, Taiwan or Hong Kong. By the early '80s Taiwan's cost of living had climbed to where they and Hong Kong (still a British Colony) were the first to take advange of Mainland China's low labor costs. Labor rates in Taiwan by the late '80s were comprable to US assembly labor. My brother watched many PRC crates unloaded in Taiwan, repackaged and sent to his factory under to be assembled component customs status. No laws broken, just good business.

With regard to 'deals', I don't think Clinton was any better/worse than any other recent president regardless of political affiliation. Even pure Carter used his clout as president to gain favor in his humanitarian pursuits, as do Bush/Cheney with the energy and other industries. Immense power has that effect on most people.

I agree on the dollar's impact in US real estate purchases using currencies other than the dolllar to fund them. With the dollar currently being devalued through our assumption of excessive government debt at a time of declining revenues, with no change in that process in sight for at least ten years, purchase of raw land that can be held long-term without concern of turning it over for cashflow requirements is a wise move. Remote land that was considered unattractive to devlopers 10 years ago and still 30 years out on the Federal master infrastructure plan is now sprouting houses. We'll have another real estate collapse, but there's a lot of money to be made in that market before then, and certainly Chinese and all other persons with investment capital can see it.