No-start advice needed
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
The mystery deepens. Came out and Freeda started right up like nothing was wrong. I started her a few times a and all is well. I cleaned the grounds to engine and chassis. Got back in and she started. Yay!
And then she didn't start. Same problem. So now going to run thru all the ideas y'all have sent.
More to follow
And then she didn't start. Same problem. So now going to run thru all the ideas y'all have sent.
More to follow
Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
The story so far:
- Battery seems to be good, as shown by previous starts; lights/gauges/fan work; major grounds have been cleaned
- The clutch safety switch jumper is still in place
- I moved the steering wheel up and down while turning key to start and no love
- I removed the front piece of steering wheel trim and can see the actuator rod move when I turn the key
- I get 12v at the S terminal on the fender mounted relay when key is turned to start
- I DO NOT get 12v at the large starter terminal (starter wire removed) on the relay when key is turned to start
- I jumped the two big terminals and got lots of sparks but no start with key in the On position
Any idea why she wouldn't start when I jumped the two big terminals? Still learning to speak Ford, but do these signs point to the fender mounted relay or the starter? Or something else entirely?
- Battery seems to be good, as shown by previous starts; lights/gauges/fan work; major grounds have been cleaned
- The clutch safety switch jumper is still in place
- I moved the steering wheel up and down while turning key to start and no love
- I removed the front piece of steering wheel trim and can see the actuator rod move when I turn the key
- I get 12v at the S terminal on the fender mounted relay when key is turned to start
- I DO NOT get 12v at the large starter terminal (starter wire removed) on the relay when key is turned to start
- I jumped the two big terminals and got lots of sparks but no start with key in the On position
Any idea why she wouldn't start when I jumped the two big terminals? Still learning to speak Ford, but do these signs point to the fender mounted relay or the starter? Or something else entirely?
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 742
From: Maryland
The story so far:
- Battery seems to be good, as shown by previous starts; lights/gauges/fan work; major grounds have been cleaned
- The clutch safety switch jumper is still in place
- I moved the steering wheel up and down while turning key to start and no love
- I removed the front piece of steering wheel trim and can see the actuator rod move when I turn the key
- I get 12v at the S terminal on the fender mounted relay when key is turned to start
- I DO NOT get 12v at the large starter terminal (starter wire removed) on the relay when key is turned to start
- I jumped the two big terminals and got lots of sparks but no start with key in the On position
Any idea why she wouldn't start when I jumped the two big terminals? Still learning to speak Ford, but do these signs point to the fender mounted relay or the starter? Or something else entirely?
- Battery seems to be good, as shown by previous starts; lights/gauges/fan work; major grounds have been cleaned
- The clutch safety switch jumper is still in place
- I moved the steering wheel up and down while turning key to start and no love
- I removed the front piece of steering wheel trim and can see the actuator rod move when I turn the key
- I get 12v at the S terminal on the fender mounted relay when key is turned to start
- I DO NOT get 12v at the large starter terminal (starter wire removed) on the relay when key is turned to start
- I jumped the two big terminals and got lots of sparks but no start with key in the On position
Any idea why she wouldn't start when I jumped the two big terminals? Still learning to speak Ford, but do these signs point to the fender mounted relay or the starter? Or something else entirely?
When you reattach the "s" wire and turn the key to start, can you hear the the fender mounted relay pull in?
Two other possibilities, corroded connections at the battery positive connections at the battery or at the fender mounted starter relay, and a dirty mounting surface where the fender mounted relay is bolted to the fender. The coil inside the fender mounted relay gets its ground through its mounting plate
Thread Starter
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Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
The FMR didn't seem to make a noise (S wire on, key turned to start), but I really wasn't listening for it either. Not saying it didn't, but it wasn't anything really audible.
The battery terminals are clean. The grounding plate for the FMR is a bit loose (tried to tighten, but feels like the threads in the fender are stripped). I tried pushing the plate against the fender when trying to start, but still nothing. No idea what's behind the FMR in terms of corrosion/gunk, but that's a possibility I can look into.
I used a long screwdriver to jump the two large posts. Cool sparks, but that's about it. Something else I should use or a better procedure?
If those two posts are jumped and it still doesn't turn over, does that mean that the FMR isn't the problem? Does logic say to look at the starter next?
The battery terminals are clean. The grounding plate for the FMR is a bit loose (tried to tighten, but feels like the threads in the fender are stripped). I tried pushing the plate against the fender when trying to start, but still nothing. No idea what's behind the FMR in terms of corrosion/gunk, but that's a possibility I can look into.
I used a long screwdriver to jump the two large posts. Cool sparks, but that's about it. Something else I should use or a better procedure?
If those two posts are jumped and it still doesn't turn over, does that mean that the FMR isn't the problem? Does logic say to look at the starter next?
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 742
From: Maryland
The FMR didn't seem to make a noise (S wire on, key turned to start), but I really wasn't listening for it either. Not saying it didn't, but it wasn't anything really audible.
The battery terminals are clean. The grounding plate for the FMR is a bit loose (tried to tighten, but feels like the threads in the fender are stripped). I tried pushing the plate against the fender when trying to start, but still nothing. No idea what's behind the FMR in terms of corrosion/gunk, but that's a possibility I can look into.
I used a long screwdriver to jump the two large posts. Cool sparks, but that's about it. Something else I should use or a better procedure?
If those two posts are jumped and it still doesn't turn over, does that mean that the FMR isn't the problem? Does logic say to look at the starter next?
The battery terminals are clean. The grounding plate for the FMR is a bit loose (tried to tighten, but feels like the threads in the fender are stripped). I tried pushing the plate against the fender when trying to start, but still nothing. No idea what's behind the FMR in terms of corrosion/gunk, but that's a possibility I can look into.
I used a long screwdriver to jump the two large posts. Cool sparks, but that's about it. Something else I should use or a better procedure?
If those two posts are jumped and it still doesn't turn over, does that mean that the FMR isn't the problem? Does logic say to look at the starter next?
You could test from battery positive to the fender mounted relay's backing plate, to see if that backing plate is grounded.
As far as the relay mounting screws being loose goes, either go one screw size larger, if they're sheet metal screws, or tap them one size larger, if they're machine threads, but get them tightened up. That backing plate needs to be tight to the fender, to provide ground to the relay coil.
I was just curious as to what you're jumping the posts with.
Honestly though, the intermittent starting, and the loose and possibly corroded backing plate, point to that ground as the issue.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 742
From: Maryland
The fact that the starter doesn't turn over, might just be from not making a good firm connection with the screwdriver you're using.
Keep going with cleaning and tightening the backing plate, then retest for voltage at the post for the starter cable.
Keep going with cleaning and tightening the backing plate, then retest for voltage at the post for the starter cable.
Hotshot
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 10,401
Likes: 2,607
From: Near Salt Lake City
I would now start testing using a decent voltmeter (DVOM)
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
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Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
When trying to start, the voltage on the starter post was all over the place. Fluctuated from around 150v to 0v-ish, so I knew something was screwy. Either way, it definitely wasn't 12v. Apologies if I didn't make that clear earlier.
Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
I would now start testing using a decent voltmeter (DVOM)
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
When I was testing the possible causes out, I did move the steering wheel up and down and fiddled with the actuator rod on the steering column. Still nothing. But I agree it could be the ignition switch - I haven't ruled that out 100%. If the new relay doesn't solve it, I'll look more closely at the switch.
Thanks
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 742
From: Maryland
I would now start testing using a decent voltmeter (DVOM)
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
You need 10.6 volts to pull in either of the starter relays
A negative ground test is what we mechanics call it
Means you are looking for voltage drop across the lines
You will be testing voltage compared to battery voltage
Uncommon on American cars (Fords)
Damn common on German cars (Mercedes)
I think you have an ignition switch problem
Next time id does not start, wiggle the ignition switch plastic part and try it again
Yes to your manual testing starter question using jumper cables (you are past that now; the starter works but might still have a faulty solenoid atop)
Post 17... Are you using a DVOM or just a test light? to say you have 12 volts?
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2021
Posts: 2,252
Likes: 742
From: Maryland
The ground could be an issue. I've got a new relay coming just in case so I'll be sure to clean up behind it when I swap them. I might also run a ground wire from the relay to another grounding point just to be sure.
When trying to start, the voltage on the starter post was all over the place. Fluctuated from around 150v to 0v-ish, so I knew something was screwy. Either way, it definitely wasn't 12v. Apologies if I didn't make that clear earlier.
When trying to start, the voltage on the starter post was all over the place. Fluctuated from around 150v to 0v-ish, so I knew something was screwy. Either way, it definitely wasn't 12v. Apologies if I didn't make that clear earlier.
When you got these readings, while "trying to start", were you reading voltage at the relay stud where the starter cable attaches, but with the cable removed?
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,118
Likes: 149
From: South Dakota
If you are just trying to get the engine to spin over(in your troubleshooting process) if you bridge the 2 large posts on the solenoid you are bypassing everything inside the cab and also bypassing the solenoid itself. SO you can rule out the ignition switch etc. being bad inside the cab. This is just if you are attempting to spin the engine over, not start it at this point.
Also, you said you used a long screwdriver to bridge the 2 large terminals on the solenoid. You didn't say how big around the screwdriver was. The shank of the screwdriver needs to be atleast as big around as the inside size of the battery cable, because it needs to carry the full voltage to crank the starter. The length of the screwdriver is irrelevant.
I just thought I would point these things out.
Also, you said you used a long screwdriver to bridge the 2 large terminals on the solenoid. You didn't say how big around the screwdriver was. The shank of the screwdriver needs to be atleast as big around as the inside size of the battery cable, because it needs to carry the full voltage to crank the starter. The length of the screwdriver is irrelevant.
I just thought I would point these things out.
Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
The fluctuation to "150 volts" may have been 150 milli volts. Depending on your volt meter, sometimes the auto range function requires you to look to the right of the numbers being displayed, to see if there's a "V" for volts, or an "mV" for milli volts.
When you got these readings, while "trying to start", were you reading voltage at the relay stud where the starter cable attaches, but with the cable removed?
When you got these readings, while "trying to start", were you reading voltage at the relay stud where the starter cable attaches, but with the cable removed?
Yes, I was reading at the relay stud with the cable removed.
The new relay is at the store, just gotta pick it up and install.
Thread Starter
|
Mountain Pass
Joined: Aug 2023
Posts: 150
Likes: 97
From: Alabama
If you are just trying to get the engine to spin over(in your troubleshooting process) if you bridge the 2 large posts on the solenoid you are bypassing everything inside the cab and also bypassing the solenoid itself. SO you can rule out the ignition switch etc. being bad inside the cab. This is just if you are attempting to spin the engine over, not start it at this point.
Also, you said you used a long screwdriver to bridge the 2 large terminals on the solenoid. You didn't say how big around the screwdriver was. The shank of the screwdriver needs to be atleast as big around as the inside size of the battery cable, because it needs to carry the full voltage to crank the starter. The length of the screwdriver is irrelevant.
I just thought I would point these things out.
Also, you said you used a long screwdriver to bridge the 2 large terminals on the solenoid. You didn't say how big around the screwdriver was. The shank of the screwdriver needs to be atleast as big around as the inside size of the battery cable, because it needs to carry the full voltage to crank the starter. The length of the screwdriver is irrelevant.
I just thought I would point these things out.
Yes - long screwdriver, medium size shank. Wasn't nearly as thick as the cable, but I get your point. It was the largest one I had readily on hand and a thick stubby was...well...nevermind.