Hello all, I am the proud owner of a 1985 Ford F250 long bed with a shasta RV conversion (currently deleted) and I have recently come across something that is perplexing me with the wiring. So the story goes, got the truck from a field where it sat for 20 years after being vandalized by farm boys, its got a 351 windsor with an efi distributor and computer but it runs a 2 barrel carb. It used to be a manual but had an automatic swapped in after the first 351 blew up. Its got dual tanks, triple now, and a dual battery system which I do not have a second battery due to health and financial issues making money hard to come by, currently sitting at $0 with no income, and this truck as my only transportation to and from appointments, job, and cancer clinic at the current time as it is the cheapest vehicle I could afford that ran. And it ran well till I decided to take it to a shop to get the rear brakes serviced due to lack of tools. On the way to the shop, front right tire blew up, didnt just go flat, it full on exploded. Truck dies in the middle of the road, and starts cranking extremely slowly, thought it flooded, and called a tow truck to get it the remaining .3 miles to the shop. Had them order a set of tires, and when they tried to start it, wouldnt go. turns out the fuel filter was plugged and I replaced it, and tried cranking it only to hear a nasty grinding. Took it home, realized the starter broke in half. Ordered a new starter and starting solenoid to replace the original one which was surprisingly alive still. Installed both, and reinstalled the battery, tried cranking, instantly went dead. Went into the engine bay, smelled cooking smell coming from the solenoid. when i hooked a jump box up it tried to crank with the key off and clutch out, so I thought I installed it wrong, especially since it isnt labeled even though the instruction manual says it is, so I flipped the wires, and tried again with a jump, worked fine for a brief moment till the battery died again, so I jumped it and it worked until solenoid cracked in half, then it only clicked. Took the solenoid off, put the original 40 year old one back on, worked fine till the battery when dead, that one is rusty and doesnt connect so good. So at this point I grabbed a volt meter to verify tthe battery is fine, sat at 12v. When I cranked, it dropped to around 3-5v so I figured the battery is shot, so i took it to autozone for warranty replacement which it stayed hot to the touch for the 4 hours it took to find an autozone that had one in stock. Replaced it, same problem. Vehicle acts like the battery is dead, voltage drops, and it cranks slowly then quits. So I got a jump start from another vehicle, works fine, vehicle starts, bowl fills with fuel, and it runs perfectly. Unhooked the other vehicle, closed the hood, accidentally shut it off. Wouldnt start. At this point it was too dark to bother and it was raining. I got a new starting solenoid today as a rma part, and tried it again, this time verifying that I put the wires on correctly and I did. Tried cranking, battery instantly died, and dropped to .06 volts. Checked voltage across the solenoid and its hanging open. At this point I am out of ideas, and I came here for potential help. I have no idea what could be causing this, and it makes no sense to me. The vehicle worked perfectly fine until I changed the starter and the solenoid, and it seems orientation of the wires doesnt matter on this solenoid since the same problem happens no matter how you install it. All the electrical systems elsewhere work perfectly fine, the only issues occur when starting. There are no shorts anywhere, all connections and grounds have been checked and cleaned, the wires still seem to get hot on the positive side only, only today on the terminal head of the negative wire it got hot as well. If anyone has any idea what I should do, or any way to help, please do so. I cannot afford a loss of vehicle right now, so selling is not an option. I thank you all for your time, and hopefully this can be sorted out.

EDIT: Forgot to note that the start trigger wire is not at fault either as the sticking solenoid problem only occurs with the new starter solenoid, the old one has no problems what so ever, but I want to retire it as it struggles to properly engage with the flex plate, resulting in grinding. It is the original to the vehicle, and its quite rusty and doesnt make good connections, especially since the starter terminal is melted from loose connection arcing, and the start wire voltage is verified dead with clutch out and key off so it is not a problem.

 

Well, this is your first post after joining the forum about 7 months ago.
Have you been reading post with similar issues ?
I understand your physical challenges.
Do you have access to a typical wiring diagram for the year / model of your truck ?
Do you have electrical test equipment ?

 

It sounds like you have a cable or connection problem on the large wiring. You have a meter and have been using it, so lets do some testing. You will need two people, one to do the testing, and one to hold the key to start.

Put the meter on the battery itself and get someone to try and crank it. You did this before and got 3 to 5v on the battery and figured it was bad. That was a good test. Just sitting there reading the voltage will tell you nothing, you have to measure it while trying to crank it over. So do this test again. If the battery drops way down in voltage again, it's a battery problem again. If the battery stays around 11-12v or higher when trying to crank it, then the battery is good.

So if the battery is good, keep the negative meter lead on the negative post of the battery, but move the red positive lead of the meter to the large battery terminal on the solenoid. Try to start it again. If the voltage drops very low when trying to crank it, then you have a connection problem or a corroded wiring problem in the large wire from the battery + to the solenoid. If the voltage stays around 12v then

Move the red meter lead back to the positive post on the battery. Take the negative meter lead off the neg of the battery, and put the neg meter lead on a good metal spot on the engine block somewhere. While holding the red on the + battery post, and the - on the engine block, try to start it again. If the voltage drops low, you have a grounding problem in the negative wire from the battery neg post to the engine block.

 

I did check the resistance on the battery to solenoid and solenoid to starter wires as well as the ground, and they were acceptable, not the best, but within a good range, so if they get hot there is the chance it is building enough resistance to short out, but currently, I cannot attach the battery back into the vehicle or it will try to run away on me since the brand new solenoid stuck. If I can unstick it and find another person to help, I will test again, bench testing the battery shows good at least. I havent checked flow down to the starter yet on cranking, but at least on battery side, and starter side its been the same story with the old and new solenoid before it stuck. I will also check for a grounding problem, the ground I am using since there is 2 is attached to the engine as well for information, I only cleaned where the cable attaches, not the rest of the bracket, so there could be a further problem too. But when I get a chance I will try it all again just to be sure, and I will let you know how that all turns out.

 

Yea, I joined looking for parts and to sell off some stuff, I did look a little for other posts with little luck both here and online, but I was also trusting googles search results so there may have been some I missed here already, this seems like a uncommon problem at least. I do not have any complete wiring diagrams, I did have some as well as company software I knabbed while I was working at ford, but I forgot where I downloaded them to. I have had to go through most the wiring in the truck since it was sittting just to check for mice damage and repair, so I have at least a pretty good idea of most of what is important luckily, but I am still in search of a proper wiring diagram for the auxiliary system if anyone has one, seems those are hard to come by. I do have electrical testing equipment, logic probes, multimeters, high voltage meters, one with all the fancy stuff on it, and general testing probes too and such.

 

Also to note, the wiring diagrams are just generic 80-87, for all f series and similar models so it does have a bit for specific cases missing.

 

You can't check the resistance on these large wires. What are you thinking is acceptable? I will give you an example;

Let's say your meter reads the resistance on one of the wires as 0.12 ohms. You would think that was acceptable right? Wrong. If you have 100 amps running through that wire during cranking, and it has 0.12ohms resistance, 100 amps times 0.12ohms equals 12volts. 0.12 ohms would drop ALL your battery voltage in the wire and you would get zero volts going to the starter. Let's say you put your meter on the solenoid, got someone to crank it, and you got 5 volts on the solenoid and it would not start. That means 12 minus 5 equals 7.5v is being lost in the wire or the bad connection on the battery post or clamp. 7.5v divided by 100 amps equals 0,075 ohms resistance. Just that little bit of resistance will keep the starter system from functioning.

Formula used; E=IxR where E=voltage, I=current in amps, R=resistance in ohms.

 

The meter is used to check stuff like powerlines and high voltage lines for proper flow, it is a bit overkill for a little wire, but it still works. I just wanted to check the resistance regardless but since I havent checked it under load or heat, its still not a trustworthy result as you have stated, and I understand that. Doesnt hurt to check every possibility, I have time to spare anyhow.

 

Well, not to bust your behind, but it did hurt in this scenario. A resistance check of the big cables gave you the misleading indication that your cables are good. You've got at least one cable getting hot. That alone is an indication it has failed.

Pour yourself some coffee or strong drink of your choice and read the following troubleshooting guide. It was written exactly for your present situation:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...w-starter.html

Follow the guide and it will pinpoint the exact location of the fault.



For your starter relay, more light reading:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...i-mean-it.html

To summarize Proust, make sure you get a top quality replacement. Lots of junk out there, bad right out of the box.

One last bit of unsolicited advice: Put away your jumper cables and/or booster box. With a battery in good condition and fully charged, the starter system should be able to reliably get the crankshaft spinning. If not, figure out why and correct the issue.

You should not have to jump a fully charged battery. It makes for misleading troubleshooting. Jumper cables are for when you're stranded somewhere with a battery that's only partially discharged, just low enough to keep from starting. Once you get home, put away the jumper cables and figure out why the battery was run down so you don't get stranded again. Jumper cables are the equivalent of crutches, for temporary use. If you break your leg, concentrate on fixing the problem versus learning how to get around on crutches permanently.

 

A tangential suggestion for the solenoid: watch ebay and other sites for new old replacement stock (NORS). Many are made by the same company that made them for Ford. Even many of the others would be considered high quality today. The great thing about them is nobody is shopping for them: they aren't right for a concours resto, and they need to be shipped. Usually they are DIRT CHEAP! Examples of prices I have paid: points $5, mechanical voltage regulator $10, solenoid $10-15.
There are a couple guys on ebay who buy all the remaining stock when an old fashioned parts shop go out of business. They pay next to nothing, price them cheap to move, make a few bucks, and keep a few of the old gals running.

Just a suggestion from a fellow member of the chemo club.

 

I will venture you have poor grounds on the old Ford.
Know your positive and negative points of contact well.
You should have near 14 Volt's charging while running.
The fully charge battery should hold near 11 volts while cranking.
The grounds on west of the Engine Bay can be a real PITA all
way back to the tail-lights. Corrosion messes stuff up, even fuse box.
There was a time when I made my own wiring, especially on the 6 volts.
And Harleys. Sitting out in that there weather is detrimental to it all.
A truck salvage yard is a great science trip to take. I once shipped a
pickup box all the way from Des Moines truck auto yard to reduce the Rust option.
There is a great Truck Aluminum Box outfit in Missouri too. Got the Aluminum flatbed
from Martin shipped to me also.

 

Update: Ground broke in half, casing was corroded inside, replaced cables and got a top quality solenoid, did voltage test, key off was 11v at the solenoid, starter signal wire reads 10v on crank, and solenoid reads 1v on starter side. Solenoid is fluttering as well. Time for solenoid #5? Replaced all cables and double checked all ground too. I also want to ask, is there a specific order for the battery cable, chassis power, and alternator leads or can they go on any way? Just want to be sure. Have to get this thing running by next monday as I am starting a job, and I am out of cash after selling the parts truck for scrap.

 

What is the voltage on the battery side when trying to crank it over If it's 1v on the battery side when trying to crank it, do not condemn the solenoid. Key off 11v at the solenoid is not telling you any good info. You must do all your voltage tests while trying to crank it over.

 

Key on voltage is at 10v battery side, its just fluttering and clicking and barely outputting past the new solenoid. Butt I broke the new starting solenoid on accident when I lost balance so I put the original back on for now. It also fluttered and clicked and its acting like its dead, with interior lights dimming and all. I am guessing when the previous solenoid stuck and drained the battery to 0v it created dead cell, so it cannot put out enough power even though its charged currently. I will have to go back to the jump method for now since no one within the state has a battery in stock for this thing. Learned that the last time.

Also I apologize for not stating that I checked the voltage battery side while cranking too in the last message.

Also I apologize if I am struggling to understand and am struggling to explain or communicate. I haven't been able to sleep for 6 days.

 

Don't do it. Your battery is charged correct? What does the meter read directly on the top of the battery posts while someone tries to crank the engine over If the battery reads less than 11 or 12v, then yes the battery may be bad or not charged. Do not take the readings on the cable clamps, only on the very top of the battery posts

If you get a good reading on the battery while someone is trying to crank the engine then move your meter leads to the battery clamps for the cables. While someone tries to crank the engine what voltage do you get? If you get 1v or something like that, you simply have a bad connection to the battery itself.