Hello,
72 F250 with 390.
Replaced old points distributor with a whole new one, a Pertronix one. We also replaced the coil with one designed for the new Pertronix.
Distributor has 2 wires coming out of it. The red wire we put on the + side of the new coil, and the black one was placed on the - side of coil.

Question comes in as we replaced the original red wire-with green stripe with one that was wired to the cab and had power when key is in RUN position. This per instructions from Pertronix as it gives us 12volts when in RUN.
I think the problem is that we now don't have power to coil when the key is in the START position. Right?
From this screen grab, when we removed the red wire-with green stripe, we removed 2 connections to the coil - 1) being the power from the switch (resistance wire) and 2) the power from the "I" side of the solenoid (brown wire). Am I right on this?


If we keep the new wire that we rigged up that gives us 12 volts when in RUN position from the cab, are we OK with running a second new wire from the + side of coil to the "I" terminal on solenoid?
Thank you very much

 

Your best bet right now is to simply test it with a voltmeter.
have someone turn the key on, and then to start while you are tracking power.

You are right to question it, but the ignition switch is supposed to supply voltage to that circuit in both start and run positions. You do not need the brown wire from the starter relay to complete that Start function. Only to enhance it while the starter is pulling so much power from the system.
However, the brown wire from the starter relay does act as a back up in case the ignition switch ever fails to provide power during start.

So it’s not a bad thing to have, but not absolutely necessary either.
The caveat here is that not all terminals of the ignition switch provide power in both run and start positions. However, the original terminal for the red with green wire does exactly that.
Also, if it’s a separate terminal, the one for the green with red wire to the voltage regulator does the same thing.

 

Not so quick there 1ton,

2 things to note, dose the new dist. need a full 12 volts all the time and if so how to get this done?
The other is the IGN switch may not supply power to the coil in both start (not likely) and run?

The wire supplying power most likely be a resister wire and if the new dist needs a full 12 volts will not work.
You can run a wire back to the IGN switch bypassing the resister wire.
or
Use the resister wire to work a relay that then supplies 12 volts to the dist.

Power in start & run
I would say if you have a wire on the small "I" stud then the IGN switch is NOT sending power to the coil in start as it is coming from the solenoid.
I would say before you pulled it apart remove the "I" wire and see if it will start.
Or use a test light to check.

Why cant you just put all the wires that were on the old coil on the new one other than the power wire as that would come from the relay for full 12 volts?
The relay would get power both start & run as the wire to it was the old wire to the coil and it worked then right?
Dave ----

 

Thanks all.
Yes, the new Pentronix Distributor needs a full 12v all the time, as does the new coil. We were just following directions of the Pentronix where they tell us to bypass the "pink" wire and connect to a new jump wire between some terminal that has full 12v at RUN.
But, we didn't have a "pink" wire on our distributor.
The Pentronix documentation assumes you know wiring diagram. We didn't know at the time that the PINK wire is inside the cab, and that was the only wire to bypass. We bypassed the connection between ignition switch and the +Coil, meaning we removed both the "pink" wire and the Red-Green wire..... of which, the brown wire from the Solenoid's "I" terminal was joined in to.
Thus, when we put the KEY to on, we had 12v. But when we turned to START, that wire went down to 0volts. Which means the coil had 0 volts during ignition.
The Pentronix needs way better documentation and description for how to wire it up.

So, we went ahead and wired up that additional wire from the solenoid's "I" terminal to the + coil to give us the 12v we needed when turning the key to ignition. We decided not to go the relay route as that would just add more complexity and wires. lol

Will see how this turns out.

Now to just figure out why timing marks don't show up with timing light

 

ok, well, that didn't work. I was able to start and get 12 volts, but turning key off didn't shut down engine.
I did go back in to cab and remove the ignition switch connector (how in heck do you remove the switch itself - special 3 prong key???) and found a little red wire coming out of the same plug spot as a "pink" wire. So, found the pink wire!!! YAY.
I spliced a new wire in to that little red one and found that it stays hot when key is turned to START.
OK, that is solved.
Now I need to figure out why my timing is a few degrees off, even tho I set engine at TDC on #1 and found where the new distributor's rotor was and set that to spark #1. But I never could find timing mark with engine running. I did find it when I connected timing light to spark #5. Guessing I'm off a few notches on distro? Or, do I need to rotate my spark plug connectors around 1 spot? Distro is turned clockwise about far as it can go and I'm still not set all the way to meet mark on balancer.
Sigh.

 

Nothing to slow down for yet. Just recommending some further quickie testing to see what's doing what and when.

Yep. But they have already stated that there is a bypass wire supplying 12v to the coil. Theoretically anyway...

The only scenarios under which this happens are:
1. If the ignition switch is defective or has failed.
2. If the bypass wire is using a terminal different from the Red w/green OR Green w/red wires.
Otherwise, the ignition switch is supposed to provide power in both ON and START positions for those two wires. Also the only ones (sometimes) that are hot in ON and START only, without anything in ACC.
On the simpler Ford switches, this was handled from a single switch terminal with both the Red w/green and Green w/red wires attached to it. I think the switch for this truck has separate terminals for those two wires?
Do you happen to remember when Ford changed switch designs? Wasn't it sometime around here?

Correct for the Pertronix system. But as they already stated, they did this. Or attempted to do this.

Definitely a common method. But didn't the OP state they wanted to stay away from a relay, for simplicity's sake? Or was that another thread somewhere?

Not sure what you're stating here exactly. Having a Brown wire or not has nothing to do with getting power to the coil in START.
The Brown "I" wire is merely a supplement to the main Red w/green (or pinkish/brownish) resistor wire circuit.
When the key is in the ON position you should always have power on the I wire because it's directly connected to the Red w/green ignition coil wire at the back of the engine. Or wherever the splice is on this particular truck.
When the key is in the START position, you still have voltage going to the resistor wire/coil positive location, but at an already reduced voltage due to the resistor wire, so the "I" wire is to supplement with closer to battery voltage to the coil to aid in starting.

Agree. Just what I was saying above I'm pretty sure.
I usually recommend a volt-meter over a light, but use either one when it's appropriate.
But if the I wire is causing the engine to fail to start, then the fault is likely in the starter relay itself. Or perhaps just as common, a short in the Brown wire somewhere along the line.

Yep. I might have missed something though, but didn't they re-install all of the wires? Red and Black from the distributor, and a new one from the ignition switch? Other than a radio noise suppressor, and maybe a tachometer(?), what else should be on the coil with this year truck?

Paul

 

They were referring to the coil. Generically too, as they only give a common resistor wire color, and not the rest of the factory color. Even GM doesn't use the same resistor wire color over the entire run.
And as you found, the "pink" wire part is under the dash and isn't always pink to begin with. And even when it was originally, the excessive heat discolors the wire to a puke brown color. Some are that puke brown already.

Their documentation has always been sketchy at best.
Even when it was just a simple paragraph and a diagram, it was misleading even to those among us that have the sickness and enjoy reading wiring diagrams!

This was something I was wondering before. Did you bypass it all the way back to the ignition switch? Sounds like you did, so did you put it on the same connector as the original Pink/Green w/red wire was located?
And a side question... Was it Green w/red back at the switch too? Or that funky looking resistor wire right up to the switch?
More of a morbid curiosity than anything else.

For sure!
But you have found something else and it's why I'm asking exactly where you connected to the switch. That terminal should have power in both ON and START from the factory. It's one of only two that do. And both of those are hot only in those two positions, while dead in ACC position so you can listen to the radio without overheating the ignition or draining the battery for having the voltage regulator energized.
Sounds like your switch is not working properly.

A quick "fix" (temporary of course) would be to connect a new wire between the I terminal of the starter relay and the positive side of the coil. It should then have 12v in both positions.
Which is I think what FuzzFace was saying to do, or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
What are the chances you still have the old harness bits and can reinstall the Brown wire and it's connector to the coil, with your new bypass wire re-connected there before the connector?
More work, but might achieve the best results.

The relay method is still on the table if it comes down to that.

Oops, I need to read further before I type...
I hear you on the relay. But it is a time tested, tried and true method of getting full voltage to an ignition system. Either for bypassing compromised wires, or when adding a more power hungry ignition system. Or whatever.
You are right that it adds more complexity and potential failure points, but they're pretty good at what they do. And doing this also lets people like me get away without having to crawl under the dash!

Now this is a THING for sure!
We need to revisit this soon.

Couple of possibilities:
1. Ignition switch is defective and not turning off. But that seems unlikely since it seems to go to zero volts when you turn it to OFF otherwise?
2. Power coming in from the starter relay/solenoid's "I" post. In which case you have a defective starter relay.
3. The wire to the ignition switch was installed to a different terminal that has power when you don't want it.
4. It's getting power from somewhere in-between there and there. Time to track it down, or do what you did next...

Victories small and large!
The ignition switch usually needs a pin tool (unfolded paper clip is the tool of choice usually) to insert into the small hole to the lower left of the key slot. Do you see one there on the lock cylinder? If not, got a pic of your switch for us to look at?

OK, that is solved.
More victories!

Setting statically by eye almost never gets you anything but close to a starting point. Even when you're lucky, you usually only get just so close. You ALWAYS have to set and/or reset timing with a light and the marks.
Assuming the marks are good after all these years!

Not necessarily, but yes maybe. With it that far off, you need to check some of the basics. Pointer and markings compatibility for example. Was the engine ever changed, or is it original?
Timing marks slipped. How old is the damper? Is there a visible notch where both the outer ring and hub line up? If so, you can see if the outer ring has slipped over time from old age.
Did you put the plug wires on in the correct firing order? Starting with the known common location for the #1 wire to be located? Usually about the 1 o'clock position if I'm remembering? Maybe 2 o'clock? I think 1 though.

Did you have the distributor out before all this? Installing the Ignitor will usually change the timing, necessitating a re-time with a light. But unless you had the distributor out, you would not normally be that far off. Did you do it with the distributor in the engine, or out on the bench?
What's the firing order of a '72 390? Is it one of the two common Ford orders, being either 15426378 OR 13726548? Counting counter-clockwise from your #1 wire location of course.

That's one method of making a big change.

Wires installed one-off maybe? Happens often enough that it's very possible.
Pertronix module making a bigger timing change than normal? Less likely perhaps, but still possible.
Did you have to set the gap with the module pickup (stator) and rotor magnet (reluctor) like they used to have to?

I hear you!
I know I didn't help solve anything with all that, but hopefully those thoughts above helps steer you into some simple discovery.

Paul

 

Recall guys, we're installing a new coil and new Petronix electronic distributor. So no condensor or suppressor on coil or distro.
No tach as of yet.
But, I think the ignition switch may be bad because now sometimes I have 12v coming to the coil with the key off, when I turned off the key, engine still ran but shut off when I jiggled the key.

For the coil connections:
I have distributor - going to - on coil and that's it

I have distributor + going to + on coil.
I have electric choke + going to + on coil to get 12v power
I have NEW wire from cab going to + on coil. This was the bypass for the "pink" low-voltage resistor wire coming from the ignition switch. I spliced on to a wire that comes out of the same connector that the pink wire comes out of from the back of ignition switch connector. So, this should only be powered when key is in either RUN or START.

Got the timing situated and working.

If I were to put the add-on tachometer back on, would this connect to the (-) terminal of coil?

 

ROFL 1Ton,
you made me chuckle. Thank you MUCHLY for taking the time.
It was PINK at the switch. We were looking for an official ford connector that had brown coming with pink going out to pink that fed the + coil. Could not find that so we followed directions and found an accessory wire that was HOT when key was in RUN. Directions were wrong turns out. This took us 3 days of our time to iron out and figure out what was going wrong. Still worked on it today too.


Yeah, our new 12v (+) coil wire is now bypassing that pink wire and the red\green stripe wire altogether and is spliced in to the little red wire that comes out of the same ... port? that the pink wire comes out of from the back of the ignition switch.
Ignition switch has issues as sometimes the engine wont stop when turning to off. gotta jiggle it, meaning sometimes that wire will stay energized.

Yeah, I did, but then engine didn't want to turn off which I assumed was due to the "I" terminal having power all the time. I know assumed wrongly - as I later found out (see previous sentence above - that the key sometimes stays energized in OFF position. So I disconnected that temporary connection, which could have worked had I known about key issue.

Thank you much once again, but I think I figured it out, or.. it figured itself out.
I found TDC on spark#1 once again. Turned engine to our timing mark and found where distro's rotor was pointing to. I was off quite a bit from spark advance. I had also forgotten to take off the spark advance vacuum tube. So, once I confirmed all that, and plugged the tube, I found the timing mark via timing light and got it set.
Sorry if this is silly, but its been nearly 40 years since I've messed with this stuff. Not since I had a 70 Chevy C10 as my first truck at 16yo.

See below. Does this mean the ignition switch is upside down? So, poking a paper clip in there will release the mechanism to ... slide out the back as a unit?


ignition switch

YES!! Thanks for that positivity. Thanks for being here!
See below for splice.

wire splicer connecting little red wire to NEW big Red wire to bypass the pink resistance wire. Ignition switch is object lower right.

Yes. Brand new Distributor after putting in a remanufactured 390. So, we're starting from scratch here.
New Distro, coil, intake manifold, carb, battery, fuel pump, water pump. Removed the AC compressor as that didn't work anyway. See engine bay below.
What bugged us biggest was that the water pump came in with the back place loose. We did not know this. Got everything on, engine connected to transmission, and started putting fluids in.. and found antifreeze leaking out the back and all over driveway. Had to start all over again almost. That took us a day to recover from.


Engine overview with new distributor in center and new coil at right, showing connections.

Yes. That. I almost have it memorized now. I keep having to kick my brain that piston numbering isn't odd\even like some Fords and most Chevy's. It's just straight 1-4 on left passenger side, then 5-8 on driver's side. and last 2 piston fires are 7 and 8. Just seems really really odd to me a former chevy guy.

Solenoid pic for giggles...


Showing solenoid connections. Black Cable on right side (starter) of solenoid is supposed to be red.. but... meh. Still powers starter.

Thank you very much Paul 1Ton for listening and offering advice. It did!!
Thanks to Fuzzface too for his suggestions and advice. It all helps as you internet beings don't know my specifics and can only try and answer in generalities until more info is digested.
I thank you both for your time and brain matter.

 

I've been trying to get my Pertronix ignitor to work for almost a month now on my 69 F250 stock 390. Still won't start!
I've talked to tech support, and when my truck started by jumping the Pos coil to the battery he told me I needed a new coil, since I didn't know the history of the one I had.

So I shelled out the $65 for the matching Flamethrower 2 (the one the documentation said I needed) and still no go.
I'm on with their tech line now as I speak. Position 5. Ridiculous.

I'm about ready to put the points back in.

 

Thanks for the pics!
While I would automatically say that the ignition switch is upside down, maybe it's not and that's just how these particular ones are oriented. Been a long time since I messed with one, but the little hole says it all. You need a paper clip and a key!
To remove the lock cylinder only (must do before you can remove the chrome bezel and switch) you turn the key all the way to the left (ACC) position, insert the tool/clippy-doodle/thingy and feel for some spring-loaded resistance. Push against the spring, then while holding pressure on it, turn the key one more notch to the left.
This should release the locking clip inside and allow you to pull the lock cylinder with key back out.
From there, you will definitely need a bezel tool, or improvised destructive device, and turn the bezel to unscrew the full switch from the back of the dash.
Never personally removed one of the pre-'73 switches, so someone else will have to fill in any blanks or needed details from here.

At least the positive battery cable is red! No foul on the starter cable being black. I prefer red too, but even the factory used black I think.
Just a good practice to use red for power and black for ground on vehicles is all.
Oh, and bigger is better. Don't scrimp on the cables!
If 6ga was good enough for Ford, then 4ga or even 2ga is better for the real world of older vehicles. Especially if you use longer runs. Which it looks like you did on the starter side?
Might have been all that was available, or might have been what you wanted to keep it clean and tidy. Which you did in spades by the way! Very tidy starter wiring!
But for a longer run like that, bigger gauge is always better in the long run.
And if you think about it, while we're talking about general overkill here, one other thing I like to do with store bought battery cables is to heat shrink the ends.
Where the wire conductors are crimped into the ends is a potential moisture entry point over time. The crimps are very good more often than not (though some have had sketchy luck with that type, I've had good results), but are not sealed as well as I like.
I use appropriately sized heat shrink tubing over just the part where the red or black vinyl jacket meets up with the metal tab. The jacket will shrink away over time and leave the copper conductor strands exposed to the outside air. Heat shrink puts this off for years. Regular heavy duty shrink tubing is fine, but the stuff with the sealant inside is even better!
Just a thing in case you want to take a break from other stuff but don't want your hands to sit idle.

Paul

 

@Texas_1969_F250

One thing I learned thru all this is that you can't use your original distributor\coil connections when you upgrade. You probably could with the old coil as it was probably needing that resistance wire in the loop, but if you have a new coil, then you need to bypass the resistance wire with one that gets power when key is in RUN and START. Find that pink wire coming out of the back of your ignition switch. Is there another secondary wire also coming out of the same port? Or, you might be able to use the "I" terminal of solenoid?
The ignitor has 2 wires, right? red and black. Red goes to + term on coil and black to - term on coil. Then your new wire connects to the + term on coil as well. That should be it.

But, others may have better info for a 69.

 

I decided to make this a separate post because the thought is THAT IMPORTANT!
New engine? New camshaft and lifters presumably? Flat tappet or roller?

If roller, no problem. If flat-tappet, big problem! Just want to make sure of two things.
One is that you are using not only a proper oil for an old cam, but also using a high-zinc break-in additive in the oil for initial startup.
And two is, that you stop cranking the motor until you can fire it up! I know that sounds counter-productive/intuitive/constructive, but it's probably the most important thing you can do for a new motor with new cam. Period.

Maybe you already knew all that. Hope so, but I always mention it just in case.
Are you familiar with the official (using "official" in a wide context) cam break-in procedure?
Just checking.

Paul

 

GREAT IDEA !!!
Kudos

 

Also, you mentioned using the power (+) side of the coil for the choke? Get rid of that!
Not the whole choke of course, but it's just another generally good practice to keep EVERYTHING ELSE off of the ignition connections. Should only be ignition functions unless you have to add a tach, in which case you have no choice.
But a tach is also a good example of why you don't do it. Many, MANY a non-running engine with no spark has been finally traced down to a faulty tachometer in the cab killing the power feed to the coil to the point it won't spark.
Same goes for a choke only double!

A choke not only pulls excess power to heat a metal coil spring, but it could also fail at some point (they're very reliable, but there's a reason they're never connected to the ignition system from the factory) and leave you stranded and hunting for a problem. Most likely leading to a new coil, new distributor or control module, removing the tape from the wiring harness to look for a fault, and all sorts of contortions before the faulty choke is found. Same happens with tachometers and radio noise suppressors.
All of those are parts that don't often fail. But when they do, if it's connected to the ignition it could leave you stranded temporarily.

Originally ford connected the electric chokes (starting in about '73 or so) directly to the STATOR (STA) terminal on the back of the alternator. This way the coil only gets power when the engine is running (not just the key turned on) and is a reliable source that is otherwise unused on our older trucks with ammeters.
Out of curiosity, does your instrument cluster use a BAT/CHG warning lamp, or an ammeter?

Anyway, just another heads-up about potential faults to avoid.

Paul