An example of a 4x4 (tough as nails) 150-250hp diesel, NEW, Price in China $16,710,

cross country 4wd soft roof 4x4 off road vehicle for sale

Alibaba.com
If anyone takes a couple of minutes and looks at the prices for both, military/civilian cars and trucks produced in China, you're going to shocked.
If you look at what a Fords cost in China, again, What? Ford sells a vehicle they've names Collar in China, full retail, in US Dollars-19,488!

 

 

I've only become a Ford fan when I became a Ford tech. Before that anything that got me from point a to b would do just fine, didn't matter how many wheels it had either. I'm at home under the hood of a Ford or I was, the technology has moved so fast and I haven't been able to keep up since leaving the dealer 18 years ago, so I'm right back at anything goes.

I'd love to have a restomod 70 El Camino. That was one of my favorite vehicles of my past.

 

Good to see I wasn't the only one amused by the comment from Tom.

 

LIkewise for me as well, FWTW. When I bought an existing body shop in the middle 80's the imported vehicles were beginning to make major gains in their USA sales, at the time due more to their initial cost. The Big Three will still producing quality well-designed vehicles whose technology was becoming quickly outdated especially in the area of body construction. The advent of unit body construction had not completely escaped the Big Three but it was not a priority as their legacy body-on-frame approach was still acceptable to the USA's buying public.

Because I could literally tear into a vehicle and make mental notes on construction techniques, relative quality of that construction, advanced unit body assembly it was apparent these upstart vehicles did NOT crumple like tin cans in collisions. Sure I still preferred a 2 ton vehicle I thought safely surrounded me in steel but could not dispute what I saw under repair daily right before my eyes..

I did see Toyota, Nissan and Honda making building fairly amazing vehicles the then younger buyers having no problems at all---they were good vehicles for fair prices and ultimately proved to be wise purchases.

If I were seeking a brand new vehicle my I'd look to Toyota if my girlfriends 4Runner is any indication of what they can and do deliver. Price-wise they're in the same range as most domestically produced vehicles so that's a no-issue. I would love to buy Ford or GM but all things considered they've lost their appeal as a source of pride that once came with "Made (entirely) in the USA".

BTW interesting discussion here---glad I stumbled into this thread!

 

Regarding your girlfriend's Toyota 4-Runner, they are tough, long lasting, very capable vehicles. When I say, "Long Lasting", I really meant, Very Long Lasting. Their [4-Runner] resale value reflects this, nationally. change the fluids and do the normal service-250,000 miles easily. Great Girlfriend!

 

I concur 1,000% on all point there my friend!

She inadvertently learned how crash worthy they are too with a double roll over a few years back. ;eek: Total loss, within a week after the crash she had another located that was a few years newer, deposit made to hold it while insurance was finalizing the settlement. That was a cascade of important events for our relationship but I'm most proud that I'd finally convinced her to wear seat belts and lock the damn door every time she drove. Her 11 y/o son was in the back seat which jarred her into realizing I had a few good ideas from time to time.

She's forged a great relationship with a Toyota dealer's service in part due my advice she do so on her own. Along time time we've been together she's learned so much about automotive maintenance being around and helping me as I do most of my own, anything from changing her own oil up to how to safely change a tire if that ever becomes necessary. I did buy her a Triple A card, offered a few tips their drivers have shared with me how to work with them getting service ASAP when needed. When/if she encounters a problem she'll call asking if a plan she's devised is good, most times she's spot on there.

I've tried teaching her enough that she's no likely to get snookered by some slick talking service salesman----when/if she encounters one of those she tells them they'll have to speak to her boyfriend--I take it from there. Most times she drives off and seeks services elsewhere.

Between her knowing a bit about maintenance and repairs gives her the distinct advantage of NOT being screwed over vehicle-wise. She's fairly devoted to keeping this 4Runner in good shape, follows the advice of her trusted service writer who so far has not led her astray. She's due for a 2nd timing belt replacement, spark plugs, valve train inspecting in the future, most likely she'll have a loaner car included.

But yes the Toyota has proven itself pretty much across the board---one upon a time Ford also built vehicles to that standard.

 

Did they? I've had Ford products dating from '97-2015, and the newer ones seemed a bit better, but not to the likes of the Asian import brands. For me, the starkest contrast is between my '04 Expedition and '06 Prius. The Expy is rock-solid from a mechanical perspective with 137K on the clock, but the rest looks, feels, and drives like an 18-year-old truck. The Prius had 178K when I sold it in '19 and felt practically brand-new in every way you can imagine. I replaced the factory battery in 2006 and it had only suffered one failure in its lifetime, which was a water pump at 90K. I had a similar experience with an '07 Kia Optima that was sold with 200K on the clock. If you cleaned up the interior that my ex-wife trashed and took it for a drive, you'd be hard-pressed to know it wasn't a year or two old. I've never seen a domestic product age like that.

I haven't had many GM products, but they and Chrysler products seem to be built to a similar standard I'd best describe as lackluster. I like to think newer ones are getting better, but I haven't spent as much time in the newer truck forums in the last few years. I think there's a big difference between one-off manufacturing defects and component durability. I'd much rather a few known issues get fixed early in the truck's lifespan than have half the truck wear out after ten years. So to that end, warranty failures don't really concern me unless they foreshadow problems that would recur later on down the road.

Tying this back to the original topic, I could never choose a well-built vehicle that was a lousy value. The Toyota bZ4x/Subaru Solterra are prime examples. Uncompetitive in every area imaginable. They charge slower, perform worse, and have less range than virtually everything else in the segment for similar money. It could be built well enough to drive out of an archeological dig a thousand years from now, and I wouldn't be interested in buying one. That's why the Lightning price increase stings so much. I think the trucks are a home run in every area but value. I'll change course in a heartbeat if the pricing changes.

 

Tom, Ford has built some of the best, long-lasting trucks of all time. I've owned a lot of Ford trucks over the years. When I use the term, "long lasting", my def is, with standard maintenance, and replacing wear out items, how long they last. The great old f150s, are still great, do they get great mpg, no, do they have all kinds of electric wonders my new vehicles have? NO. But they were strong, I have a classic (Tenn antique reg) 1978, 460cid (engine rebuilt by pro shop, big increase in HP) all matching numbers, that still has a lot of mojo. I do not think the 2022 trucks built (in the same numbers/percentage) will still be around in 45 years, they just aren't made with the same eye on durability. The problem has come about due to several reasons, the big one, urban dwellers suddenly discovered the body on frame pickup truck. The interiors reflect this, as well as all the "must haves" for the urban cowboys, heated seats, massive electronics, "special colors", the right look for a "cool dude' etc. this is the era of the Mall Crawler! You can walk around the parking lot at any big mall, look at the beds of al the pickups you see, not a scratch, many wearing 20 layers of wax! Trucks are not being used as trucks, but rather daily drivers, is this bad, I don't know, but it does change how the mfg'rs make their products. When I'm out hunting, I see a lot of Jeeps/ Tacomas/older 4x4 trucks, I seldom see many late model f150s/broncos/etc., I hunt in a number of states, "the times they are a changing".

 

I agree about trucks going upmarket, but none of that added equipment prevents a truck from being driven for 500K miles. My old Expy has power-adjustable pedals that have a design flaw where the plastic gear will eventually crack. It happens to almost all of them it seems, and replacements aren’t available. I just manually screwed the pedal adjuster into the correct position and ignore it; nothing about this prevents me from driving it. The engine, transmission, and rear axle are incredibly solid, which is why I bought it to begin with.

But I’d make the same argument of modern cars and trucks. Yes, they have sophisticated shock valving, cab isolation, laminated glass, and noise insulation. But what about that will stop that truck from existing 30 years from now? The engines are complicated, but you’d get the same conclusion looking under the hood of any modern emissions-controlled engine. Heck, the ancient 2V 5.4L in my Expy looks like a rats nest with vacuum and coolant lines running everywhere. My old Prius was even more complex, yet they are some of the most objectively reliable things ever made. My Expy is definitely not that, despite being a bit simpler in overall complexity. The emissions-controlled engines of the late-‘70s and early ‘80s were some of the most finnicky, gutless, and unreliable things ever made.

I suppose my point in all of this is that complexity doesn’t have to be unreliable. I think it’s more about how that complexity is achieved than anything else. Foreign automakers figured that out long ago, and I like to hope their domestic competition has in recent years.

 

Regarding "gutless", in their original form, as produced, no argument from me, but when one takes the old block to a modern builder, you may be surprised at the amount of torque and HP you can get from an old fashion 460, not to mention, a serious computer is not required to modify, swap, change, test and tune. Looking at the number of recalls over let's say the last 10 years, I don't think some of the mfg's have quite figured out how to make things last as long as they used to. There are Big exceptions, of course, Cummins is an example of an engine that is like the energizer bunny. I realize this is a Ford board, and I'm a ford fan, but to be honest, the overall best mill (gasoline) to come down the pike in a long time is the LS series (GM). If one goes to almost any track in the US, you'll find the LS dominates, customer builders stab LS's in almost everything, they make a ton of power and are Very reliable, give the devil their due. Talk to any professional body man, ask him about the older cars needing repair, the older vehicles had much heavier steel, fixable, not "replace panel" type body work. It is sad we don't have enough old fashion body men, those that could shape steel, weld and finish a repair-that is just too hard for the boys to learn any more.... Regarding 40 years from now, I won't be alive to see if I'm correct or not, but things get old, the fewer rubber hoses, plastic mounts, etc. etc. a machine has, the more likely it will go longer than one with a lot of "they get old" parts.

 

I don’t think recalls are a fair way to look at design prowess. There were some massive lawsuits over the last two decades that really dropped the bar for what needed to be recalled. The GM ignition key and Bolt battery recalls come to mind. A billion dollars spent because of a dozen fires among over 100,000 vehicles? I think that’s nuts. More ICE vehicles will go up in flames proportionally for other reasons, yet a rare manufacturing defect triggered one of the most expensive recalls in history. GM lost millions because people accidentally switched their cars off. If they don’t recall every last little thing, the legal risk is massive.

So…in other words, a modern EV? No vacuum hoses, fewer coolant lines, direct-drive transmission…

 

Don't forget to add, and a dead battery! A Bat that, most likely, is not mfg by the OEM, but might be had by a small shop that builds one-of-a-kind type old fashion bats, they are out of..... And if any corrosion took place in the wet battery, there won't be much left after the fire, except for the hazardous waste someone is still fighting over, as to who is financially responsible for the clean-up and hazardous waste removal .....
Regarding "design prowess", it really doesn't matter how Great, super great, extra great a design is, if it is poorly made, the entire unit is crap. Ask a baker, how great their product would be if they used substandard ingredients, no matter how wonderful their recipe is/was. Ford has/ had 559 Recalls in the last 10 years. there are currently 22 Class action lawsuits pending against Ford, engines, transmissions (MT82), aluminum body corrosion problems etc. All of their design prowess has not kept Ford from having their share of problems.

 

I think something very important to consider about reliability across the segment is that most everything is built to not cost much of anything in repairs for the first 100,000 miles. Where the Asian auto makers outshine Detroit is after the first 100,000 miles and beyond.

I've owned four F-150's, '84,'86, '88 and my 2011. The '88 should have been burned to the ground and crushed upon assembly, pure junk from jump. I did log 225K miles on that truck but with two engines and endless component changes.

My 2011 to date has been the most reliable vehicle that I've ever owned. It still feels new with 116K on the clock.

I recently sold the '04 Expedition in my signature for $3000. It was a 4x2 with the 4.6L. The truck had 143K on the clock and we bought it new. At 80K miles it needed a fuel pump, it needed another fuel pump 20K miles later. Since then no issues. To me, the Expy drove and felt more like a truck than my truck. After I bought my 2011, I didn't like driving the Expy anymore.

The 2022 F-150 XL is a perfect fit for the aspiring truck buyer who wants a new truck without all the electronic gizmos on it. Get it with the 3.3L V-6 of the 5.0L, you're a winner either way. Sadly it's not as dressed up as the XLT or higher but it'll be reliable longer.

 

This is an interesting chart I stumbled upon a few days ago. Average transaction prices are much higher because people are choosing more expensive trims. But entry-level vehicles in every segment have gotten cheaper over the years, including the F150.