Hey all,

Planned on running my Com 35-349 in my 408 project, and to upgraded it later. But after picking up a HV oil pump, I don't want to take the chance running the hardened iron cam with steel dizzy gear, so here we are. Will say the Comp 35-349 ran great in my 302, pulled enough vacuum for MAF, and good curve from 2,500-6,000. So here's the scoop:

408
10.2:1 CR
205 CC intake runner volume
Max RPM ~6K
Street/strip
Hydraulic roller
1.7 Rockers
91' short bed, 2dr (smaller truck)
M5OD
Can gear rear to suite, but running stock rubbers and have a 4:10 to put in
MAF converted with tuning abilities
Just looking for a smooth, balanced torque/HP curve. Enough to daily drive down low, and enough up top to let those heads breath.

What are you all thinking?

Thanks,
-Glaser67

 

I don't follow, the 35-349-8 is a steel roller cam, and in a 408 it will produce an idle-5000rpm powerband... assuming enough cylinder head.

 

More than enough head flow...300+CFM at .600" lift

Regarding the material, their site states its is austempered ductile iron, which they recommend a melonized iron dizzy gear. Myself, and others have had success with steel "roller" stock dizzy gears, but not everyone. Given stiffer springs in the 408 heads, 1.7 rockers, and high volume oil pump, I don't want to roll the dice with the stock steel dizzy gear, and dont want to change to melonized gear if I have to change back to steel when I upgrade.

Back to my old cam; I like its performance, but need bigger, and SHOULD be able to sacrifice a little vacuum (as I can adjust the MAF curve at idle), and would prefer steel vs. iron.

Is it as simple as finding a steel one with same specs, just more lift?

 

Well I'll be a....

I had a copy of that exact cam and it was definitely a solid steel billet.. but that was more than a few years ago now, evidently they changed the manufacturing process somewhere along the line. Well... if you are buying another cam anyway then yes... you can definitely use something bigger. A 408 will produce tons more low rpm torque than a 5.0 even with quite a bit more duration, so maybe consider having a custom cam ground.

 

Tailing onto this, what would be the biggest cam recommended for the following combination that can still be managed by an EEC-IV and QuarterHorse, and pass emissions?

331 stroker
AFR 165 (CARB EO)
GT40 tubular intake with ported lower

Would an E303, which also has a CARB EO, be too much or too little?

I'll be looking for injectors and a MAF to match the power potential of the above parts, and hopefully the QH will be able to accommodate.

 

check his, he is emissions legal-->Seattle FSB 408 Stroker Build | Bronco Forum - Full Size Ford Bronco Forum

 

I recommend never running a high volume oil pump especially on a 351W based engine. In that case you've got the little distributor gear and the stock pump is already the same size as the one used in a 460. The gears don't need any more load.

 

QH would definately be able to accomodate; Don't know what it's limits are, but poking around on the EECTuning forum, some guys are making crazy power with it.

Regarding emissions; No idea what stuff they do in Cali, but if you have the QH, you could just upload an emission-friendly tune, and turn off emissions to avoid CEL. If you delete air injection and EGR, rather than trick to the computer or live with CEL, you go into the tune and literally turn it off, its great.

 

Thanks, and given your input, I'll reconsider. My machinist recommended it to keep up PSI at hot idle. ARP pump shaft would help, but to your point adding stress to the gears makes me uneasy, specially on a daily. Below are pics of the Comp cam I pulled last night, along with "roller" dizzy gear. The dizzy shows what I would consider minimal wear, where the cam gear is definitely missing some meat. With a pic you can easily feel the groove. Not surprising that the steel dizzy gear ate into the "hardened" iron cam gear. Needless to say I wont be running this in my 408, and I'll replace with a billet steel cam.

Back to the drawing board for cam selection.

 

The way metals interact/wear when run together is something that's always puzzled me. I've been using the SADI core with a cast iron gear combo in most of the street hydraulic roller engines that I build. With a steel cam I would only use a bronze or if available a composite gear. Or in your case with a Windsor if you want a steel cam have them grind it using the 2 piece Everwear core which can supposedly use any gear(I always use a stock cast iron).

One time a few years ago I was burned by the steel gear/steel cam combo in a build for a Pantera customer who wanted a steel cam but didn't want to run a bronze. The engine was used for some intake manifold testing and probably had more than 3 hours of dyno run time when I pulled out the distributor to check the gear. It looked perfect as did the cam so I put the distributor back in and shipped the engine out.

The owner installed it and drove it on the street. He drove it from his house close to San Francisco to Reno and back with no problems. The next year at Reno it ate the gear when driving on the road course. How it could look like new after 3 hours and then run for 3500 miles and fail suddenly is beyond me but it did.

He also insisted on having an HV pump which undoubtedly put more load on the gears. With that said this was a 408 Cleveland which has the big gears not a Windsor.

 

Thanks for the 408 reference; it looks promising, especially if the QH can be tuned to work with the combo.

That cam gear looks pretty worn away. So steel dist gear is bad for even hardened iron gear. Got it.

Dave, when you say "it ate the gear" in the steel gear/steel cam combo, which gear got eaten?

 

the steel on steel combo ate both of the gears. It was probably something with the heat treating of the gear and once it wore just the slightest bit it was all over. I've been leery ever since.

I feel that the SADI cores are ok for a hydraulic roller and even a solid if the lobes are made for street running and can get by with say 180 seat and less than 500 open. I wish that the two piece cores were available for the Cleveland and big block Ford engines where with the 460 you can't even get a SADI.

 

I find this dist. gear thing very confusing. I've read about gears called "melonized, coated, nitrided, hardened, carbonized"....Geesh. I believe Ford stock roller cams were billet and their dist. gears were hardened steel (melonized). When I got a custom cam(Comp SADI core) I used what was specified, an OEM steel gear or melonized which they sold (Crane coated).

To the OP, when you say they recommended melonized iron gear shouldn't that be steel?
I see now on their site they recommend composite for SADI. Was the dist. gear placement on shaft checked for up/down clearance when in the block?

 

Knocking on wood I've never had a problem running an iron gear on a SADI core. I've never had a problem running an iron gear on an Everwear/two piece core either. I've never had any problems running a bronze on a steel core or a cast iron core. A friend of mine says that the gears are "melonized" by using a Sharpie.

Fit of the gear was checked as was cam end play and I think that the one in my example that roached out was a Crane gear.

Another interesting thing is I've run cast iron gears on reground factory cores lots of times in Chevrolet engines with no problems and I know that I've got a few in Fords that are also running on a reground factory core(non HO 5.0 is one of the best cores available).

 

My options are limited at places like Summit and JEGS. Regardless of what gear I've been running, decided to opt to a steel cam. Lunati and Howards have a bit of a lead time for a custom ground, so I pulled the trigger on a FRP X303. I could certainly use a bit more lift and duration, and will undoubtedly cork the engine. 112 LSA should be OK for being able to tune with a QH and MAF conversion. With 1.7 RR max lift will be about 0.570, which isn't terrible. I'll get a custom grind next year for when I ditch the stock 351 intake. We'll see how the cam and dizzy gears hold up, but I'm hopeful because for now I'm using the stock 351 dizzy and the X303 is same material as the original roller cam, at least I think.