base engine issue #8
Fleet Owner
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 27,881
Likes: 3,595
There was some of this problem occurring in the early days, but it has been a while since seeing it again on the forums. I have some old links stored somewhere that show impact marks on the piston.
Actually it kind of surprises me that it doesn't happen more often. Especially with the video by DTR.
Actually it kind of surprises me that it doesn't happen more often. Especially with the video by DTR.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
I agree today, there is more awareness of the issue here. But I think people who do not do engine work are less aware, and with the lower volume of the truck in Europe, it might be overlooked. And based on the traffic volume in 6.0 forums, not as many are still running around. The PS seems to be more of a magnet for the concern.
The first time I ever heard of the issue was from my girlfriend's father when I was about 17 (1972). He was the NJ State Police garage supervisor in Trenton and once told me one of his guys could not find a carb nut on a 428 Interceptor and asked him what he should do. He said he told him it probably did not drop in the manifold, so button it up. They lost the motor on startup, and he laughed that was an expensive decision. He told me about other mistakes mechanics make, but I still think of that story every time I've taken an engine apart—it's like the good angel on my shoulder. Ed Ferns provided me with a lot of good knowledge when working on my first '65 289 Mustang Convertible.
The first time I ever heard of the issue was from my girlfriend's father when I was about 17 (1972). He was the NJ State Police garage supervisor in Trenton and once told me one of his guys could not find a carb nut on a 428 Interceptor and asked him what he should do. He said he told him it probably did not drop in the manifold, so button it up. They lost the motor on startup, and he laughed that was an expensive decision. He told me about other mistakes mechanics make, but I still think of that story every time I've taken an engine apart—it's like the good angel on my shoulder. Ed Ferns provided me with a lot of good knowledge when working on my first '65 289 Mustang Convertible.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 1,895
From: unfortunately Germany
Hartwig,
It definitely had the incorrect glow plugs put in. Since that was done, one question would be, was there a prior long glow plug into #8 where the tip broke off. Another question would be if, with all this work, at some point was the intake manifold removed and the possibility of one of the 8mm hex nuts dropped into an intake port. Those nuts seem to be the worst when you ask mechanics that have had that happen or examined what happened.
I watched several videos where top-end work was being done, and way too many people put the removed nuts and bolts on the top cowl using it as a parts holder. Then somewhere along the line, something drops off. Or they just fumbled the part out of their hands, and it drops next to the intake runner. When I took my engine apart before pulling the intake, I swept the area with a magnet, then borescope, then air gun to make sure nothing was dropped and hidden in that area as I felt it was such a problem. At the time, I only planned to take one head off.
Depending on how this goes and if you are asked to do a forensic analysis, I try to look at all the expensive work in the past and think about what could go wrong at each prior repair. For example, when I was having my engine installed at the Ford Dealership, we had a conversation about going through a lawsuit where one of their techs dropped a bolt, and it took 20k for the engine damage to occur. The fastener probably got embedded into the piston and stayed there for some time. It happens even at what I consider a good dealership.
That much of a loss of compression would have to be a bent valve or a cylinder wall scored. If the piston were holed, you would see a lot of blowby in the crankcase.
Considering the stiction of the injectors during the buzz test, either FICM voltage or this truck had very poor maintenance of the oil system. I'm assuming oil because I would think you would have checked FICM output voltage.
If you have a borescope that can go through the injector bore, I would take a look around. You might be able to see a scored wall without having to remove the head.
I see Mark recommended that while I was typing.
It definitely had the incorrect glow plugs put in. Since that was done, one question would be, was there a prior long glow plug into #8 where the tip broke off. Another question would be if, with all this work, at some point was the intake manifold removed and the possibility of one of the 8mm hex nuts dropped into an intake port. Those nuts seem to be the worst when you ask mechanics that have had that happen or examined what happened.
I watched several videos where top-end work was being done, and way too many people put the removed nuts and bolts on the top cowl using it as a parts holder. Then somewhere along the line, something drops off. Or they just fumbled the part out of their hands, and it drops next to the intake runner. When I took my engine apart before pulling the intake, I swept the area with a magnet, then borescope, then air gun to make sure nothing was dropped and hidden in that area as I felt it was such a problem. At the time, I only planned to take one head off.
Depending on how this goes and if you are asked to do a forensic analysis, I try to look at all the expensive work in the past and think about what could go wrong at each prior repair. For example, when I was having my engine installed at the Ford Dealership, we had a conversation about going through a lawsuit where one of their techs dropped a bolt, and it took 20k for the engine damage to occur. The fastener probably got embedded into the piston and stayed there for some time. It happens even at what I consider a good dealership.
That much of a loss of compression would have to be a bent valve or a cylinder wall scored. If the piston were holed, you would see a lot of blowby in the crankcase.
Considering the stiction of the injectors during the buzz test, either FICM voltage or this truck had very poor maintenance of the oil system. I'm assuming oil because I would think you would have checked FICM output voltage.
If you have a borescope that can go through the injector bore, I would take a look around. You might be able to see a scored wall without having to remove the head.
I see Mark recommended that while I was typing.
I am a very careful mechanic, but the engine seems to have been worked on by amateurs only. Here in Germany they have a sign above the workshop-door that says: "US car spezialist" !
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
I hate to post this ..... This video from SRMastertech shows even well-respected techs have done this. At 2:25 in, I start cringing as bits and pieces go onto the "parts tray". After I got my truck back from my dealership with the new engine, I found a Snap-On 8mm quarter drive socket with a universal up there. An expensive way to get new tools. And ironic since a few weeks prior the service manager was telling me about the lawsuit of a bolt being dropped.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
Hartwig, I know Germany has in the past been good with technical training. The engineer who worked for me supervising my Los Angeles test garage was from Bavaria and worked for BMW as a test engineer going worldwide. When his assignment was to go back to Germany, he decided to stay in California. I'm not sure Helmut feels the same today. We often talked about his education vs. mine. If Germany has had the decline in trade education like we have in the US, I can understand the rework problems you encounter, fixing other people's fixes.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 1,895
From: unfortunately Germany
I am now in the workshop and have made pictures of the right and wrong plugs, screwed into the head. I also measured the dimension from the piston bottom to the piston surface. I will post pictures here later in the office.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
In the USA, the owner would have legal recourse for whomever put in those GPs. Nuts or bolts often leave an imprint in the piston, although they get distorted. From what I’ve read, the 8mm hex flange nuts can get past the intake valves at full open.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 2,808
Likes: 1,895
From: unfortunately Germany
Hartwig, I know Germany has in the past been good with technical training. The engineer who worked for me supervising my Los Angeles test garage was from Bavaria and worked for BMW as a test engineer going worldwide. When his assignment was to go back to Germany, he decided to stay in California. I'm not sure Helmut feels the same today. We often talked about his education vs. mine. If Germany has had the decline in trade education like we have in the US, I can understand the rework problems you encounter, fixing other people's fixes.
The 6.0 costs 2.5 times as much here in Germany as in the US.
I am currently looking for a complete longblock for a customer truck.
Maybe someone here on the forum can help me find a longblock.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Oct 2018
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From: unfortunately Germany
here you can see the difference in length with a trained eye:
The piston should hit the glow plug at about this angle:
I screwed both glow plugs into a `04 head.
Distance of a short (current) plug to the head: 6,2mm
distance of the long (`03version) plug to the head ("machined" by the piston): 7mm
Depth of "chamber bowl" in the piston: 6,7mm
The piston should hit the glow plug at about this angle:
I screwed both glow plugs into a `04 head.
Distance of a short (current) plug to the head: 6,2mm
distance of the long (`03version) plug to the head ("machined" by the piston): 7mm
Depth of "chamber bowl" in the piston: 6,7mm
Fleet Owner
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 27,881
Likes: 3,595
I hate to post this ..... This video from SRMastertech shows even well-respected techs have done this. At 2:25 in, I start cringing as bits and pieces go onto the "parts tray". After I got my truck back from my dealership with the new engine, I found a Snap-On 8mm quarter drive socket with a universal up there. An expensive way to get new tools. And ironic since a few weeks prior the service manager was telling me about the lawsuit of a bolt being dropped.
He has another video where he says the 04.5 year engine will take an 05 HPOP and it has the failure prone STC fitting. Not as big of a mistake, but it has cost people some $$'s when they buy parts that don't fit. Unfortunately a lot of "sources" get that one wrong (techs, shops, etc).
We all have made mistakes, so no judgement at all (and no doubt he and Sr. Master Tech have been INCREDIBLE resources) ...................... just that it is worth commenting on to get correct information out.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 17,824
Likes: 3,104
From: Jersey Shore
"We all have made mistakes" ... there are some in video land that doesn't believe that and get really defensive. But we all do, and it's not a detriment to the work or the person.
For every video I've made, I'd like to go back and edit. It's so easy to make errors or later think of something in a different presentation. All you can do, Mark, is place a comment - you, the person making the videos, or in their case, the families or caretakers. With YT, an edit means to trash the video and re-post, losing the comments people have. I can't do that; some of those comments are helpful to everyone and also give me ideas.
For every video I've made, I'd like to go back and edit. It's so easy to make errors or later think of something in a different presentation. All you can do, Mark, is place a comment - you, the person making the videos, or in their case, the families or caretakers. With YT, an edit means to trash the video and re-post, losing the comments people have. I can't do that; some of those comments are helpful to everyone and also give me ideas.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 846
Likes: 34
Two days ago, I took bolts out a plastic bag I left on the "part holder" Jack posted above about MasterTech. One fell down, bounced several times. It is a big one. I looked on the floor and couldn't find it. Took me a few hours with flashlight, magnet and mirror. I gave up. It must hang on a gap somewhere. Good thing is that the engine was closed up.
But I am worry it would fall into it the next time I open it. I t hi ink it is low down there though.
I also lost a rubber plug to the overflow container. by accidentally touched it. It took a long time to find. I was thinking of using a vacuum with. a new bag sticking inside the intake ports of the valve head. But I later found it outside. I sould have used rubber band and plastic wrap on top of the rubber plug.
But I am worry it would fall into it the next time I open it. I t hi ink it is low down there though.
I also lost a rubber plug to the overflow container. by accidentally touched it. It took a long time to find. I was thinking of using a vacuum with. a new bag sticking inside the intake ports of the valve head. But I later found it outside. I sould have used rubber band and plastic wrap on top of the rubber plug.