With all the criticism of the EPA and other government and private watchdog agencies I don't think it's possible to "overprotect" our remaining wild resources. I think that ship sailed many years ago. As our population continues to grow we will place higher and higher demands on dwindling resources. I would hate to see an aerial view of this planet 50, 100, 150 years from now.

 

You see, this is the problem.

I don't want to single you out jskufan, but people are terribly uninformed on this issue. They know only what the "environmentalists" want them to know.

The fact is, if you could see air photos of what this country looked like 50 or 100 years ago, you'd be amazed at how much BETTER it looks today. Pristine, no, but we've come a long way, and we continue to get better.

Furthermore, nature itself is an ever changing entity, very few photos would look exactly the same after 100 years, regardless of human intervention. Forest fires and drainages are just two examples.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for protecting our natural wonders, I just question the means by which we're trying to do it, and in some cases, the motives behind it.

Also, the population of Canada and the US (well Canada anyway) would be declining if not for immigration.

Waxy

 

It's the wholesale destruction of streams (sloughs) that I have seen in this part of the country. But the tactics you describe do help broaden the wound and make the scars on the other regions.

 

When I ride it's on public land and at sanctioned races. I live by the motto bring out what you take in. I'd kick someones butt up between their shoulders if i seen them trespassing and then littering on another persons private land. That is not cool at all. It's the few butt heads that make the rest of us ATV guys look bad.

I'd also like to add that i go to WV and pay fee's to ride on their beautiful trails that were made available to us ATV guys. It has brought millions of dollers to the economy and we are treated like kings when we go there. But i guess were still buttholes for tearin up the land but were putting food in the mouths of some very poor people in that area.

What about people that ride on horseback?? Horses wil flat out destroy land with their shoes but you never hear about them, it's all the other off road type vehicles that get the butt end of the deal.

 

Well face it, if we dont like logging, lets all wipe our hinies with a stick, and write on stone tablets.
Better practices can be instilled in the industry to compensate for what you call problem areas. Down here, loggers have to Permit a road, slopes cant be more than 10%, silt fences MUST be placed, roads also ditched based on storm calcs, not just what looks good. The ground has to be returned to AOC when completed and must put up bond before they start . When they are done, the only way you can tell a logging company has been in there is that the trees are gone.
THEN, some landowners turn the Old logging roads into 4x4 trails or dirtbike and atv trails. Im riding in a place in NC called Forest Games that did this, they logged their land, then opened up trails on the old roads a few years later, they charge 10.00 to ride there, But everyone is happy to pay it.

Ron

 

Ricos,
A good debate is healthy and worth it's weight in gold.



Do you really know the impact a horse (moose, buffalo, elk, etc.) have on the evironment?

No comparison.

That's what we need instead of just allowing our lands to become wastebaskets and ugly scars. But, of course, that's few and far between and only for private lands.

Wiping on a stick?!

 

I would like to point out that horses have been responsible for the spread of non-native/invasive species, primarily through their poo-poo. That's why they're not allowed in some wilderness areas. So, there's more to their impact than the erosion issue.

 

I'd like to point out that horse trails CAN be every bit as damaging as ATV trails. I've seen it with my own eyes.

The constant pounding of hooves on wet ground is just as destructive as the passing of tires. Especially if said tires are large in footprint and aren't spinning.

There's no such thing as zero impact.

Waxy

 

I did mean no access by internal combustion engines. Virtually all of our wilderness areas are roaded, unimproved dirt from when they were surveyed and/or logged, and the ones I've visited and had the pleasure to explore, hunt and spend time in allow only tired vehicles pulled by horses/mules, usually a suply wagon for a camping or hunting party. They must stay on the roads at all times and are restricted to widely separated established base camp sites allocated by park and wildlife management. From a base camp you can go wherever you want on horseback, but are still restricted to roads. Retreiving game off roads is allowed by one pack animal. If you haven't spent some time, like a couple of weeks, spike camping in mostly undisturbed forests with original old growth, then none of this will make any sense to you. It does not restrict handicapped access, that's against federal law.

 

I'm really having fun watchin people call me ricos. LMAO You guys can call me Rico the S on the end is just stating the triton is mine.. He hee

Anywho, i'm from KY and yes we have a few of them 4 legged thingies around here(horses). They leave one heck of a trail after it's been used for several years. Just erosion itself on hills is destructive whether ya throw in a horse or an ATV trail or not. I'm out there to enjoy the land the good Lord gave to me. I do not litter or pollute the lands while riding. Normally I"m racing and can't even look around at were I"m at but this is something I enjoy and it is a family oriented sport. I'll not let someone that disagree's with me ruin it for me or the others i ride with. I have respect for the land but not for those that think they own it because their doing something good. Sorry but standing around in the woods watchin the tree's and grass grow is no fun.. Rippin up a hill or thru a valley is a blast, you should try it. You might actualy like it. I"m also a hunter so i kill all the creatures out there too on occasion. Boy I bet some of ya love me now..

 

Thats all Fine and dandy, I agree with this idea in SOME areas, but not ALL public land, there is no reason some cannot be put aside for Multi-use recreation.Shoot, whats there is fine, just quit taking it away from us (ORV USERS).

Ron

 

I have ridden and raced from the time I was 4, and both my sons do now, and the thought that all they will EVER be able to enjoy is closed course competition or Private property Is just utterly ridiculous.. I guess if I look back at earlier posts.. IT IS MY RIGHT to have some of this land for my use, by god im paying for it.

Ron

 

This is starting to become more of "I don't care what you say" thing so I'll just have to wait until it gets a little clearer to get some good out of it.

But I will say this:

17 years ago we began horseback riding on this certain trail that was opened up by the Arkansas State Parks and Wildlife. It was already a few years old. For 17 years we rode that same trail with no erosion to speak of (just small portions at creek crossings) and no problems except from falling rock and downed trees that had to be removed. In two weekends (4 days) that trail was in ruins, so bad that we could not lead our animals around it. It was soon closed to everyone but hikers - then it was strictly controlled. The rangers told us that had it not been for the destruction caused it would have remained open. He then pulled out a map and pointed out all the other areas that were destroyed by atv/motorbikes. It was a bad deal.

Those of you that have seen destruction by horses must have seen the same thing by other large game. And, no, the shoes do not set the horses apart from the others.

And I hunt, fish, ride wheelys/horses, got two 4x4's and kill game of all kinds. I am not a pacifist nor an extremist. I just do not like to see "our" lands desecrated, defiled and dishonored and can see no other way but to support laws (some, not all) to prevent it.

 

I'd like to think this describes me as well.

HOWEVER, I do see the banning of all motorized activities as EXTREMELY extremist and exclusionist.

Motorized recreation and "desecration" are not joined at the hip. I could point you to numerous recreation areas in the foothills of Alberta where there has been ATV access for the last 30 years and yet the areas remain in very good condition. Sure the main trail heads immediately adjacent to the campsites get abused, but 95% of area, and I'm talking 10,000's of thousands of acres, all of it accessible, is in excellent shape.

The key is MANAGEMENT. Fire risk gets too high, close the parks, extremely soft terrain during the spring melt or after very heavy rains, close the trails. It CAN be done, and it IS done in Kannanaskis Country. Will some ignore the laws? Of course, and they will likely damage something. Catch them and fine them. Problem solved.

So many of you on here, myself included, are pro gun, that's why the reaction to this thread really surprises me. What happened to "guns don't kill people, people do"? The same logic applies to banning motorized recreation. ATVs alone are not inherently evil, those that break the rules and ride them destructively are the problem.

I can ride my dirtbike through an area and you would never know it, I'd leave no more of a scar than a guy on horseback and the exhaust is stock, you wouldn't even hear me. It's a matter of approach and respect.

Waxy

 

I guess somewhere along the way I lost grip of my integrity...or have I?

I am not blaming machines. I am blaming people and that is what I want to gleen from this thread. When I come face to face with the "person(s)" responsible for legislating and enforcing a law that will dictate how I can or cannot utilize public lands, then I want to have literal backup, real-world and down-to-earth. Not some weak version aimed at intimidation.

Laws are passed by those who want it covered in broad strokes and "be done with it". It is, no matter how tiring, our duty to pick through them and define the lines.

My kids deserve to have, at least, a portion of what I had when I was young, and having access to the wilderness is one of them.