Be sure to sprinkle it with lots of profanity though, because that really helps to make your point and boost your credibility.

Waxy

 

The problem is, that SMALL fires, which you say are o.k, end up burning 200,000 acres. Someone is not going to be there, everytime A fire starts, and alot of the time, these fires start and are only a few acres in size and STILL cant be contained, thus you end up with the huge fires we all see. So clearing sick trees and underbrush can help this situation, by eliminating fuel for the fire. You have no more sedimentation in the streams with the logging, than if a fire had cleared out the trees. Thats why the Big concern now is mud slides., By creating a logging road, you would actually BENCH the hill slide, helping eliminate slippage, and control runoff.

Ron
00 Excursion Limited 4x4 V-10

 

I've been on a lot of logging roads in a lot of western states and
most are cut at the bottom of any logging site to facilitate drag lines and skidders. They're essentially new rivers that catch increased runoff. Any slopes that are below a certain degree of pitch get the services of a D8, and that leaves very little of anything but chopped up slash. Have you been onsite with a logging operation? It ain't pretty. Most of the big ones I've been at the fellers are paid by the 30' cleaned log and time, not caution, is the criterion. You need to see a skidder or D8 at work in a forest. Enviromental concerns are at the bottom of the list. In most cases all clearing sick trees does is spead the problem faster.

 

George,

I have seen much the same. Additionally, having had to traverse cleared land as part of a replanting team I can say it often resembles a plowed field as far as texture. I find it hard to believe the resultant erosion isn't greatly magnified over what a fire would do. Silt fencing which is used routinely now became required for good reason.

 

Silt fencing should be used anytime there is disturbance.. Its common engineering practice and rules for most states of environmental protection. I have seen logging done on hills you literally couldnt walk up, the dozers cut roads horizontal to the slope, which in some places is greater than 2:1 . The roads are silt fenced, and straw bail lined.. Aprroved E&S Practices must be in place to control runoff..Which is not the case with completely barren land.

Ron

 

I was led to believe fire actually creates a slight crust over the ground that provides protection for germination and water retention assisting that germination. The differences between commercial interests, recreational demand and natural preservation of forests will always be at odds. Money usually wins, as in the case of Scotia's Redwoods.

 

I dont want off on the wrong foot here, this is obviously, and always will be a heated subject. My Point is this, and deals mostly with recreation. My Own feelings are this, that if you have a 500,000 acre park, and that park already has ORV access in 1000 acres of it (dont quote me on numbers, its an example) Then Evryone should be happy. I have seen pristine wilderness, and places I would not DREAM of even riding a bicycle through, absolutely beautiful places. But it seems that all that we have as ORVers is getting lost every day, acre after acre is getting taken away from ALREADY ESTABLISHED trails and roads. And it seems when environmenatlist use the IF YOU DONT CLOSE IT DOWN< WE WILL SUE policy, everyone loses, because all monies and effort are tied up in court.and almost 100 percent of the time you have conflicting information from environmental scientist as to whether it is endangered or not, whether it could grow there or not, whether it could survive or flourish with ORV or not.
Keep your wilderness areas, Save the spotted owl, whatever, but dont you dare come around my back yard and try to shut down MY public recreation areas that are already established That I as a tax paying citizen of this US own. We have ALOT of hillbillies and rednecks down here, and I gotta tell you, all them environmentalist would just walk out in the woods on a fact finding mission and never walk back.. People take it seriously down here.

Ron

 

ktmguy70,

I take no exception to your feelings in principle. Recreational areas may have to be ocassionally closed to allow recovery. Would you disagree?
I have first hand experience with this as it pertains to campgrounds. I suspect that ORV areas would need similar monitoring and stewardship.

Where is "down here" anyway?

 

I agree Sinjiin, I think that (again an example) you have 100 miles of roads and trails on said public land, that portions can be closed down at times to "recover" while other portions remain open, then, when the prior portion of the trails and roads open again , then close another portion. I believe it could be systematcially closed,not all at the same time. We used to have the biggest race in the country down here for Mtorcycles and ATC's before it was closed down, the blackwater 100. The race went through 25 miles of sensitive peatbogs (why it was named americas toughest race) Environmentalist closed it down, But what many of us dont understand, is the documented proof of the healing of this land, you could go back onto this property 2 months after the race and NEVER KNOW that 40,000 people were out there, except for the occasional coffee cup.
But in theory, YES I agree with what you say, its very much common sense.

DOwn here is West Virginia, Where Im from, but currently In NC.

Ron

Edited to say: That is as long as while the portions of trails are closed, they arent deemed roadless and turned into wilderness.

 

It's been a while since I was intimate with fire prevention practice, but I think that some controlled burning with appropriate firebreaks will keep small (relatively) fires in containment. Part of the recent problem has been the unwillingness to allow controlled burns or simple containment of large burns as opposed to extinguishment. Containment is different than control in that in containment, the fire runs wild within a certain boundary, but is not extinguishable. In control, with adequate resources, the fire can be extinguished, but resources are not committed.
Another problem was the huge amount of unhealthy timber left standing. Beetle kill, poor nutrition, drought, and buildup of underbrush were all contributing factors. If you look at pictures of the fires, you might note that many of the trees outside the fire zone don't have growth (branches, leaves, needles) near the bottom and the branches existing droop. These are not healthy trees. After the fire has passed, most of these trees are gone. Others have branches near the bottom and the branches lift above the horizontal. These are healthy trees, and exist after the fire. Unfortunately, most of the trees in the area were of the previous condition and were fuel for the fires. The tops were dry and allowed the fire to spread among the high growth where wind could catch it. The pressures in the fire hoses used in wildfire don't allow reach to the tops of those trees. Hence, out of control.
The bright spot is the lovely growth which will happen in a couple years.