right 0 degrees while cranking... that’s not an issue?

 

So, I guess I’m a little unsure here, the red/blue wire going to the fenderwell solenoid COMES FROM the white wire on the box, and if I disconnect that red/blue wire, it literally won’t crank, so I think it’s a dead giveaway that it’s getting 12v at the white wire, and retarding initial timing during crank.

 

If that is working, all you can do is advance the timing till it struggles to crank hot. You said you had it at 16 and it was struggling. I would try 14. Then 12 if it still has problems. You have been running it on 10, if it will run on 12 that will be better than 10.

I don't mess much with the guts of a Ford distributor, it's a pain to tear it apart and try to tune it at home. If you had the money, you could go aftermarket with the ignition system. You could go with a MSD system that is triggered by the Ford dist, some of them do have a spark retard. You could try a HEI retro fit. I am assuming they are just like the original GM HEI, the springs and weights are up on top where you can get to them easily. And MSD and others sell distributors also, but it's not cheap.

You might want to find another stock used duraspark II and just drop it in place and see what it does just as a baseline setup compared to your modified one you are running now. Once you strip the original setup off the engine, you are on your own as far as setting up the tuning.

P.S. I have messed with the GM distributors trying to set them up. I will warn you, if you use very weak springs to bring the timing in early, that sometimes they are too weak to reliably bring the weights back to there stops. So the timing can "hang" a little bit advanced randomly, giving you cranking problems once in awhile.

 

Yes, it’s definitely being sent back off to the guy who did it last time. He’s been real good.

Im going to run it at 14 for a while, and if it hot starts, back to 12.

as for the ds2 unit, this is a remanned unit, I wouldn’t feel comfortable tearing into them more than just verifying it’s retarding the start.

it just bothers me now a little bit that it is retarding the ignition 10 degrees and still struggles. The guy tells me that sold me the cam, lifters, spring, recurved the dizzy, that he hasn’t seen any issues in all his years building bbf like this one, engines struggling with 14-16 degrees WITHOUT spark retarding feature...

I want to check thermostat and the cooling system, to make sure it’s not running overly hot (dummy light) and I also want to check static cylinder pressure during crank. I guess I also need to verify tdc on the crank balancer.

 

Everything has to be in pretty good shape if the initial ignition timing is getting in the higher teens, esp. if compression ratio is anything worth talking about. Especially when hot. Maybe the starter itself is getting long in the tooth? Just spitballin'. Testing starter current draw is pretty easy with those handheld induction clamp type meters.

 

9:1 compression on 87 octane, with a cranking psi around 155. Early timing set straight up, Ported d3 heads, edelbrock intake.

I’m not even going down the road of an up to snuff starting system....

the problem basically disappeared once I retarded initial timing, so I’m either in the “slipped damper” and timing “isn’t as shown” or the cam is too advanced mechanically.

I guess I’m just perplexed why “it should crank as free as an engine with no plugs in it, even without the starting retard feature, from 14-16 degrees initial timing.” Here I am had to drop to 10 to get it to do the same thing. I’ve moved beyond the starting, charging system, and I’m looking mechanical...

 

I guess the main question is, it was a monster at 16 degrees advanced initial timing. By dropping it to 10 degrees, I lost a whole bunch of power, if it were close to 75ftlbs or more I wouldn’t be surprised.

However, by dropping that timing I got reliable starting, which I tend to prefer over the power most of the time. I can start creeping up timing to find that sweet spot, but wanted to make sure I didn’t have issues elsewhere. Hence the white wire testing.

Easy answer is as such, get the distributor re-curved again to bring in timing quicker, while still maintaining the initial 10 degrees during start.

 

A piston stop tool would quickly answer the TDC/balancer question.

 

I forget. Are you running headers? That can aggravate the hot starting also. If no headers, still make sure you do not have a small exhaust leak on your manifolds that can puff hot air down on the starter.

 

Fenderwell headers, jet hot coated. Everything has been heat wrapped.

 

The 3v on the wire white is odd since as you said it is in the same circuit as the R/LB and both come from the Start position of the ignition switch with no resistance wire involved.
When you are seeing that 3v on white, is the R/LB still showing a full 12v?

I am not following what you are saying here, particularly the part in quotes: I guess I’m just perplexed why “it should crank as free as an engine with no plugs in it, even without the starting retard feature, from 14-16 degrees initial timing.” Here I am had to drop to 10 to get it to do the same thing. I’ve moved beyond the starting, charging system, and I’m looking mechanical...

What is the basis for it cranking at 14-16 like it has no plugs and without the dsII retard feature?



Adding the details of my setup just for reference if it helps. Disregard if not.

9.5:1 cr
Recurved dizzy from Scotty. Total is at 3000 rpm
Initial was recommended to be 14-15 but I believe I am at 13 right now (will check again once I get a few more miles on the engine)
Performer intake
600 cfm quickfuel carb
XS Torque Powermaster starter
Hedman HD (old thicker ones) coated headers

Whether hot or cold it spins over like nothing.

Before the rebuild when completely stock (smog and all) it was really slow hard starting. Same battery.

 

I was getting bad connection on the terminal when I read 3v. Cleaned the area I was grounding to and got 12v.

funny you attach your build, mine is basically identical, and I’m in contact with Scotty, he did all the recurve, cam etc. The quotations are basically what he said to me, it should have no issues cranking that motor at 16degrees. I’m only at 9:1 compression, same starter etc.... and you say you have no problem. Here I am with 14 degrees and so far no problems, but 16 degrees acted like starting a bulldozer after sitting for 10 years...

if 14 degrees works good after I get some miles on it, I’ll be fine, but I know I had to bump it to 10 to get rid of that sluggish start. I went from 16-10, and am now trying to creep back up.

 

he also stated that it should crank my engine at his recommended 14-16 degrees initial timing EVEN WITHOUT THE START/RETARD function working, as most aftermarket ds2 boxes don’t have them.

 

Glad to know we can rule out the white wire. From the experience I have had with the XS Torque, I agree with him - that thing really cranks.
I originally had a new Mastertorque on it and it was exhibiting really bad hard start issues. The first dozen times it started great. Had O'Reilly's test it in the truck and it tested bad. Swapped it for the XS and night and day difference.
I would give that test a shot. Might be as simple as a bad unit. I wouldn't have imagined mine was bad almost out the gate either.

 

Well, here’s my list of starters, 6 or 8 factory or aftermarket starters, 4 or so rebuilt starters, 2 powermaster xs starters...I know I’m missing a few to mention.