Greetings all. This is my first post here, I’m hoping the engineers at ford can see this and respond or tell if it’s possible.

i am intrigued by the new F150 propower onboard and having a generator built into your truck and what it can mean for those of us with RV trailers and 5th wheels.

my question is...will ford ever take this a step further and allow boondockers the ultimate freedom to go anywhere. Are there plans to put a powerpro onboard system in the F250/F350 line that can have a 50amp 120V Direct plug in for our RV toys? Yes...50amp (we Texans need 2 AC units :P )

Would anyone else like to see this?

 

You have to remember (if you didn't even know) this site is NOT owned or even promoted by the Ford Motor Company. It's is owned and promoted by IB (InternetBrands). I doubt very much if anyone at FOMOCO even checks out this site.

I recommend that you go to the Ford Owners web site and make your recommendations. It's in your owners manual. OH....great idea however !!

 

Thank you. First time to the boards and appreciate any guidance !

i will seek to find the engineers at Ford and ask them this question. Glad I found this board, lot of great info and people it seems!

on this topic, do any of you do boondocking with your RV trailers? Would you like to have a generator built into your truck that can power your ACs and lights in the middle of nowhere?

 

Welcome to the board.

It's probably cheaper and easier to just get a generator for those needs or have solar and batteries and not deal with those noise makers.

 

We prefer boondocking with our 5th wheel vs. staying at a campground. We really, really dislike parking lot style RV spots, but sometimes while traveling or visiting family the choices are limited.

In December of 2018 we made our 5th wheel completely self sufficient with solar, inverter, generator, etc...

We can run everything off the solar, batteries and inverter except for the A/C. I installed an EasyStart364 to enable us to run the A/C off a small suitcase generator. I think having a 50A generator onboard a truck is a pipe dream, but I would like to see it. Although, I think the tank size of the truck would need to be increased as well for the extended generator run periods. There are all sorts of things to think about like F-150 towing capacity and capability, 6.7L not designed to idle for long periods, 7.3L gasoline is very new and still being vetted, etc...

I think Ford made a big leap in the right direction with the onboard 120v power, but this is a long way from being a 50A supply.

 

Nice setup Sous!

Yes, I too think 50amp would be a pipe dream. I’m hoping there’s an engineer that can make dreams come true :P

as for the comment about the noise...I was making some assumptions here about the new F150 generators (I have not heard one in real life), but what I read led me to believe that the engine just turns on to spin the generator portion when the battery gets low. My assumption is that it’s just the noise of the engine idling....but you what they say about assuming.

another consideration is my current 7200watt generator burns 4-5 gal of gas every 8 hours. I’d hope they’d engineer a cut off switch to allow you 7-8 gallons to start your truck and reach a gas station.

as for 50amp AND as quiet as engine idle...likely a true pipe dream indeed.

 

Semi trucks for years have been using different measures to reduce idle time. The way it used to be was that when a driver parked their truck they left the engine on as that powered everything - climate controls included (heat/AC). Idling commercial vehicles in a lot of areas around the country is now no longer legal. Reducing idle time is a maintenance and operational cost reduction measure as well. So if you bundle all of that together - there are avenues to allow that to happen in the commercial truck world.

Those options are:
APU
EPU

An APU is an "Automatic Power Unit". This is a smaller engine driven generator that powers up the cab for use while parked. It is sort of like the on-board generators on motorhomes (class A, B). I don't think there are many 5th wheels/bumper pulls with onboard generators (portables, yes, but I'm talking the low speed 1800rpm RV class units etc).

An EPU is an "Electric Power Unit". This is really not much more than a house battery bank and more alternator power on the truck engine. The truck engine keeps the house batteries maintained and charged. Then when you park you use the power off the house batteries instead of running the engine, or a generator.

When it comes to commercial vehicles - weight is important. The general "legal" weight limit is 80,000lbs for a regular semi truck. Most states, not all, allow a weight exemption of 400lbs for certified trucks registered with an APU or EPU (I always heard it bundled as just the "APU" term, but our trucks all had "EPU's" and ran off the same exemption) so you can scale legally at 80,400lbs without an over-weight permit (again, some states don't recognize that, though so you have to watch it close and plan accordingly).

What I can tell you is than an EPU is close to worthless. Perhaps if you had lithium batteries it might be a better set up (at about 5-6 times the cost). Everything in the cab runs off the EPU - including the bunk AC (when it is hot and you need it) and the power inverter (our trucks had 1500 watt inverters). So your TV, computer, microwave, refrigerator, what have you all pulled power from the inverter, which in turn ran off the house batteries. The run time on the batteries was not very much and as the batteries aged (AGM's I believe is what they were) the capacity in the batteries decreased and dropped the run time even more.

Back to the idle time of the engines - if you take the F150 for example and a V6 engine - do you REALLY want to be putting hours on your transportation engine for the purpose of getting power to your RV - and your main power at that?

Think about it for a minute.

There are two ways to get AC power.
1. Alternator
2. Inverter

Lets take a look at number 1. This is how a conventional generator works. Most portable generators run at 3600 RPM to produce 60hz 120/240v AC. There are bigger generators, and going back to the RV class generators these are in this class also, that run 1800 rpms. These are generally diesel power plants. Lower speed means less noise and less wear. In either case - 3600 or 1800rpm designs - the alternator has to be spun at that speed to produce usable AC power.

Do you want your transportation engine running to provide the constant speed necessary to spin an alternator at its' required speed?

Granted, there are some interesting ways to do that. You could put the equivalent of a CVT on the input of the generator alternator - a Continuously Variable Transmission. This way, the alternator RPM could be regulated with varying RPM of the engine (more power draw = more engine RPM? though I am not sure you would need to ramp the RPM's up on a V6 or V8 engine much).

On to number 2. Inverters. These require a DC power supply. Then the inverter provides the AC power.

If you look at inverter style generators (fuel burning generators - like the Honda EU2200i etc) the engine spins an alternator that provides AC. That is rectified and turned in to DC. Though that DC varies, it is used by the inverter to regulate it and create AC power. As more power is needed the engine RPM is increased to provide more wattage (notice I didn't use amperage or voltage) so that the AC power can be maintained.

In the conventional sense of an "inverter" - it is a device that takes DC power and converts it to AC power. These have customarily been run off clean DC, such as from batteries, for decades. In this case it is akin to the EPU set up I talked about earlier - you have battery power supplying energy to an inverter from which you pull your AC power from.

If you try to get inverter power from your truck engine - inevitably you are going to need to run your truck engine to provide power. However, there is no room for a battery bank on the truck to use the conventional sense of an "inverter" run off of batteries, so the only idea that remotely makes sense is an alternator then rectify that to DC to run to an inverter.

Look at the Honda EU7000i inverter generator. The largest outlet it has on it is a 30 amp. Take the engine off. Now where are you going to put the alternator to pull power off the truck engine? Where are you going to put the inverter?

My 2011 F350 has AC power in it from the factory. It has a 120-150 watt outlet on the back of the console facing the rear seats. That is about as much AC power as I think is practical built in to a production vehicle. It will power up consumer electronics. That's it and all it should really handle.

I have an 800-1000 watt inverter that I got to run some RF test equipment out of a truck. It has enough power to run some power tools also - provided that it has enough battery voltage behind it and large enough wiring so as to keep the voltage at the inverter up under load. That wouldn't be hard to build in to a truck, nor something larger like a 1500 watt inverter. However, that type of power source is extremely limited - because of battery capacity.

If you look at energy use - running your vehicle's main engine should be the last idea on your mind.

There is a lot of studying one can do on the subject of energy production. On the same token, there is a lot that can be gained from understanding energy use and how you can regulate it and reduce it (such as load balancing, staggering loads, etc - don't run your electric clothes dryer when you are cooking dinner on an electric range with the AC on, for example).

I've studied alternative energy - and am studying it - as well as generator power before as we have cabins where that knowledge could be very handy. When you start looking at 10-20kwh per day of energy use and wonder how to supply that things start looking a bit different. For example - 5kwh of that alone is a water heater that runs on 240v. Do we really want to run that BIG of a load on electricity?

I understand 2 AC's in the heat and the desire for the power. What you're asking for is a 15,000 watt peak/12,000 watt running generator running off your tow vehicle's engine. The break down:

50 amp service is 2 poles. You have 2 hots and neutral. Between both hot lines is 240v. Between each hot line and neutral (individual hot lines) is 120v.

This is a BIG misconception with generators and something that even people that sell these and work with them don't understand in my experience because I had to study it to get the answer I wanted (for the cabins - dealing with the well pump and water heater alone on 1 generator - no one could give me the answer I needed so I found it): Your generators' alternator is really rated in AMPS. If you look at all generators they are stamped on the side with "watts". Whats wrong with the picture?

Your generators' alternator - and this is a conventional alternator style generator, not an inverter generator I am speaking to here - is rated to 1 amperage value yet produces 2 poles for your different voltages (120 and 240 volts).

You can very well have a 7200 watt (continuous, perhaps 8000-8500w peak) generator. If you do the math on that it should be able to run 60 amps all day long at 120 volts, right? 7200/120 = 60. Basic Ohms law.

Wrong. Very wrong. That is the combined amperage, but the limiting factor is still the windings in the alternator.

That 7200 watt rating is at 240 volts. Your amperage is constant through both poles of the alternator. That means that the max the alternator can handle is 30 amps. 7200/240= 30.

When you look at the 2 poles of the alternator only allowing 30 amps - that means when you split the poles to get your 120 volts your max wattage is (30 amps x 120 volts) = 3600 watts on a pole.

So this gets back to power management and understanding your loads. If you can split your high power loads to run on 2 circuits (to pull from the 2 poles instead of 1) then you can better load balance your alternator as each pole is sharing some of the work.

If you can not - and you have 1 hook up to your RV that is 1 pole - then you need 1 pole of your generator to provide the power you need.

So take your 50 amp service for example. If you need that on 1 pole that means that each pole of the alternator needs to supply 50 amps. Lets do the math:

(50 amps x 120 volts) = 6,000 watts.

Since alternator style generators have 2 poles and output 240 volts the wattage rating that you need to use to get your 50 amps at 120 volts is actually 12,000 watts (derived from 6,000 watts per pole). Since you do not want to have a generator that runs your service load at the peak starting wattage of the unit you need your running wattage to cover that then your peak starting wattage to be higher than that.

If you really want to get in to the nitty-gritty of generators - allow yourself 20% head room. So use 80% of running wattage to cover your service needs.

Lets do the math a bit more here:
(12,000 watts /.8 usable) = 15,000 watts running. That would put starting wattage in the 17,000-18,000 watt range.

Please note, also - power and energy consumption are two different numbers.

Power is wattage.
Energy is watt-hours, or kilowatt-hours.

If power looks scary - start accumulating kilowatt-hours and then look in to what it actually takes to provide that. You might want to be sitting down when you run the numbers.


You guys in this thread are wanting 50 amp service to an RV - powered off your tow vehicle? Maybe I'm on a planet all my own here, but I say you're nuts! Aint' gon happn'.

We can all dream, though.

You know, Orville and Wilbur Wright stated they had more fun and got more enjoyment from dreaming and imagining they were flying then they actually got when flying. I suspect they experienced too many skid marked shorts in flight to call it "enjoyment".

 

Wow, what a comprehensive answer...thank you! I’ll read that multiple times, and I will keep dreaming I suppose

thank you again for the knowledge!

 

Theres a lot of good stuff in that post. I enjoy digging in to the numbers and when I went trying to understand how the water heater and well pump would load an alternator at our place, and apparently I didn't ask the right people, no one could give me a straight answer or understand what I was even asking. That still bothers me - it should be an obvious question and easily answered. Moral of the story - don't take things as face value.

Here's a nifty, cheap gadget that will help you understand your loads also. These are great to get an idea of kilowatt-hours. They don't handle start up loads (they don't react fast enough to get an idea of inrush current in motor/compressor starts), but for accumulated energy use or more constant operational amperage they work fantastic.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100A-AC-LCD...YAAOSwLVZVxiLV

 

I left out another important piece that the above points completely missed.

The rated wattage numbers on generators do not take in to account the plugs and main line circuit breakers.

There are generators that are rated to upwards of 10,000 watts that have their largest electrical connector a NMEA L14-30. This is a 30 amp rated dual pole (120/240v) outlet, which should also be breakered at no more than 30 amps.

If you have 10kw available what sense does it make to have a 30a outlet that will trip when more than 30a is drawn (from either a 120v leg or both at 240v)? That means at 120v if you draw more than 3600 watts on a 10kw generator you blow the breaker - the biggest one on the unit.

I got a kick out of looking at the Winco Big Dog 12,000w generator specs. It has a 45 amp main line circuit breaker and is rated to 12,000 watts starting. If you do the math on 45 amps at 240v you get 10,800 watts. So there is an extra 1200 watt head room that you will never see that is still plastered on the side of the generator. If your start up load pulls more than 45 amps on a pole/leg (120v side - AC starting up, for example, or combined across both at 240v) the breaker will pop. So again - you'll never get 12,000 watts out of it.

So back to the outlets.

The biggest NMEA connections you'll see on a generator are the 14-60's (I have seen Anderson connectors larger than that, however when you get that big most units are prime or backup use and intended to be hard-wired, no interconnects). This is like a dryer plug - it doesn't lock. Only a handful of generators have them. The 50 amp versions (14-50's) are slightly more common. Once you surpass the 14-30 (and I can't say I've seen a generator that does not use a twist-locking version - so the L14-30's) you step in to the 14-50 - IF the manufacturer puts it there. Again, you may still find the largest plugs are 30 amp rated - whether an L14-30 for both 120/240v or an L5-30 for 120v only.

However.... moral of my point:

Just because you have a plug that meets a certain standard (take a 14-50 for example with a 50a rating) doesn't mean that the "generator" can actually provide 50 amps of power.

In the case of the 12kw Winco generator - the breaker is 45 amps. If you draw 46 amps you throw the breaker. Lets say you have a 50 amp breaker. Your AC's draw 21 amps each. That is 42 amps combined running. Your TV draws 1.2 amps. Your lights draw 2.8 amps. Your laptop draws .5 amps. Your refrigerator compressor kicks on and the inrush current goes to 5 amps for a split second. That's 46.5 amps plus 5 = 51.5 amps. Breaker pops.

Know your loads. Spend $15 on a meter (link above in an earlier post for an example) and educate yourself on what loads pull what currents and energies. Then make a chart. If you want to power everything under the sun so you don't have to think about load management - go big on your power supply ability and certainly don't skimp on the breakers (and especially the wiring - never size a breaker bigger than the wiring in the circuit you are supplying can take).

 

Thank you! I’ll be doing my homework (you have provided the valuable study materials)

 

We carry a small generator in our fiver. I can't imagine ever wanting one built into my truck. I'd rather have it built into the camper since that is where I'd use it. I like to unhook and drive the truck separate from the camper and don't think I'd want to bother with plugging and unplugging every time I want to go somewhere in the truck and leave the camper.

 

Just for kicks I ran some numbers here to illustrate the specific example a bit better.

There are several things and numbers I threw in the wind for the purpose of the illustration. Those are:
- Particular model of generator - this can be any, I just randomly picked one that had suitable specs to use (Generac, Northstar, etc are just a couple other brands you could do the same with)
- Slope of the fuel consumption - this is the orange line on the graph below. I approximated this on the low end to a flat line for ease of calculating. Note that above 50% load the consumption goes up exponentially. Also note that for 120v on one pole you never go past 50% because that is the breaker limit at 60 amps, even though in this example that is 7200 watts - half of the rated wattage. For an explanation of how that is see the details in post #7 of the thread. I won't re-hash that here.
- I equated 100% load to be 14,400w as that is the limit of the main line circuit breaker. Running wattage is spec'd at 15,000w, but you'll never realize that because of the breaker. As to where the OEM spec's actually come from - no idea. All they list is "% load". They don't define what the "load" is. So for the illustration I am defining it (right or wrong) as 100% = 14,400w.
- Period hours in the chart on Operational Consumption - guesstimate based on duty cycles in the Usage chart.
- The average load vs period to compute fuel consumption. See the note in the spreadsheet excerpt below for more detail.
- The use-case below is in Prime Use generator territory. A Prime Use generator is what you see on foundations to power buildings like hospitals (larger scale, of course). Portable generators (specifically 3600rpm models such as the one in the example) are light-use. They are not built for Prime applications and therefore won't last in such service.

That said, and to cut to the chase:
In this example you need almost 13 gallons of gas per 24 hour period to supply 2 AC's, a refrigerator, and somewhat normal consumer electronics.

Questions:
1. Although the burn rate of fuel would certainly be way different, if you were to get this kind of power from your tow vehicle's engine - Where would you have your fuel supply?
2. How many days are you going to be able to boondock on what fuel you can carry?

A quick thought:
All of the below is what APU and EPU (see post #7) technology is to address = Smarter power management in an attempt to more efficiently provide power from fuel burning engines (vehicle's engine in the case of EPU's, again see post #7).

Below is the illustration of this:
What it takes to supply the power requirements with the particular generator in 1 day/24hr period (and you can assume generators in this class will be similar) is nearly 13 gallons of gas. I won't stretch things out to the efficiency of the power conversion between potential energy (in heat when burned) of fuel vs the electricity provided after the combustion-to-mechanical then mechanical-to-electrical power conversions. I can assure you it is extremely inefficient.

For the sake of detail, yes I did leave out the comparison between kilowatt-hours vs gallons of fuel burned. However, where these do come together is the run time while the generator is providing the wattage in the last segment of the spreadsheets. This is from the wattage loading the generator causing the fuel consumption to go up. So, the comparison here is power (watts) vs burn rate for a given time.

In the same breath on the subject of detail - in a fuel burning generator, as opposed to alternative energy systems that use storage (batteries), you are substituting the ability to store excess power with the ability to provide that power on demand via burning gasoline. Flipping this around - in the case of Alternative Energy systems - substituting the ability to burn fuel is where your storage ability comes in to play. You have to, on average, produce the energy you are going to consume (kilowatt hours) and what you are generating that you are not consuming, at the time it is produced (excess power), has to be stored. You don't have to produce the larger instantaneous power consumption (the start up on your AC and refrigerator compressors, for example) because you have the energy stored to pull from to give you what your source does not (source being wind, hydro, solar, what have you). Fuel burning generators have to have the capability to provide the peak power draw and instantaneously acquire that from the fuel that is there. That is where the fuel consumption goes up as seen in the graph below (last one of the pictorials at the bottom - the graph, not the spreadsheets/OEM spec sheet) - the load on the alternator goes up and the fuel drawn from the engine shoots up. That is also the trade-off that you have when the engine is running while little to no electrical power is drawn. The ability for the power to be drawn is provided by the .47 gal/hr minimum fuel consumption. That is the price you pay for convenience.

***The segments below are imported as pictures. There is text underneath them in smaller italicized lettering that might be hard to make out if you are skimming through.***



Note the green. Fuel consumption listed on the left in the red box. That is what the rest of the numbers are based off of.




Sample generator and specs copied from the spec sheet. The wattage, as noted, is based off the breaker tripping with a total of 14,400 watts (at 240v, or 7,200 watts for 120v). As noted in the red boxes - for 120v you can't draw more than 50% because that is the single pole limit of the breaker.




EDIT: The bottom line didn't format correctly so please note that is the "Total Average, NOT Start Up" - start up of motors/compressors is not reflected in that number. The reason - start up periods are so short, in comparison to the run time, that I am leaving them out of the total fuel consumption numbers.

Yellow is your AC - 2 lines because there are 2 units. Red is your miscellaneous. Details are spelled out in there.

Edit #2 - note the total kwh in the bottom right/brighter red box. For my cabins example I'm under 20kwh with 3 fairly occupied buildings and 2 auxiliary buildings - without AC (don't have the need for it most of the time). And in this RV example you're almost double that - because of the AC. I'm not knocking it, but if 5 buildings with a water heater and well pump are running on half that it is something to think about...





In reference to the two chart segments above: The burn rate in the below segment is what the wattage in the above segment gives when plugged in to the Equation. The Period was derived from the 2nd segment (Usage chart with the loads breakdown) - again this is a wild *** guess, but it gives some meat behind the draw on the generator and that, in turn, is what the yellow box comes from - how much gas it should burn in 24 hours. As per the note detail in the 2nd segment - you would have to do a live use-case study to get real precision.




Graphed fuel consumption. Again, 7200 watts is 50% and that is the most you can draw from 120v. So by approximating a flat line to that range we can more simply compute reasonable fuel consumption rates based on wattage in that range.





Last thought for now...

When you think about it - in the scaling of perspectives here - the idea of being able to provide large amounts of power in a mobile platform is why Nuclear technology works so well in navy applications (ships, submarines). What they deal with is exactly the same - how do you provide x amount of energy while on-the-go?

Then go back to the 1800's when steam power was prevalent - namely in the railroad industry (also shipping). Take a train for example - how much coal and water had to be on-board? How often did the train have to stop to resupply?
Or, modern diesel-electric locomotives - how many thousands of gallons of fuel rolls behind the locomotives before the cargo cars start?

That is an interesting question to ponder for a while. What does it take to provide x amount of energy? And again - electrical power (wattage) and electrical energy (watt-hours) are two totally different units, but you have to work with both.

 

Onan Power Generators - FORDification.com

 

Cool! Never heard of that before. Thanks for posting.

Even that unit, though, doesn't draw from the vehicle's engine apparently.

That is an odd-ball generator. It is 3600 RPM unit but only 1 pole for 120v. It doesn't have 240. What is good about that design, though, is the full 2500 watts is available on 120v/single circuit - a bit over 20 amps. That you certainly don't see every day as generator alternator design has windings that provide 2 hot lines and 1 neutral for 2 poles. Thats where you get in to challenges with heavier current 120v applications - generator design today requires the loads to be split. That is all well-and-good in a back-up situation where you are feeding a building panel because electrical panels (at least in most of North America) for single phase service are already dual-pole (thats the two sets of breakers in the box - even and odd numbered and why 240v breakers take 2 spots - they connect the two poles between an odd and even position) or where you have the option to run different extension chords off of each pole/leg separately. For RV's and boats that have single pole high-current input you are only able to run off of one of the two poles = you need a generator twice as big as the numbers would show you "need".

The energy challenge in the RV example of powering it and dual AC's is really the same challenge as every other application of using energy. With physics and practicality against the reality of getting that kind of energy from fossil fuels the question should be directed towards another energy source. Even in the EPU example - if you had heavy duty alternators that could charge up, say, 30kwh of batteries (and thats a LOT of batteries!!!) in a short amount of time you are still pulling that energy from a fuel-burning engine so ultimately the "energy" is coming from the combustion of fossil fuel so you still have to carry that fuel. Where you do make up for it, though, is the EPU allows the engine to take a break until the battery bank drops in voltage enough to warrant running the engine. In practice it is only slightly more efficient.

For what it is worth, the EPU on the truck I ran for a while had 4x 200Ah AGM batteries. On label that equates to (4x200 = 800Ah for the bank, 800Ah x 12.8 volts nominal =) 10.240kwh. That looks pretty good on paper. The problem is lead batteries you should only draw 20%. The deeper you discharge the quicker the batteries' lifespan is impacted (and thats the problem I had - label specs on the batteries were "great" and they were relatively new batteries, but they didn't perform - because they were taxed too far and wouldn't retain energy). Using the 20% figure - of that 10.240kwh what should have only been used was (10.240 x .20 = ) 2.048kwh.

With Lithium technology (LiFePO4, for example - Lithium Iron Phosphate) you can pull 70%, as opposed to just 20%, without decreasing the lifespan of the batteries much.

Complicated subject... but in an EPU application where you HAVE power on-demand (from fuel and the engine driven alternator) - you can get by on battery capacity where the discharge rate allows you to meet your peak discharge power usage (think of your AC starting while everything else is powered in your RV - what does that start up load look like?). That peak discharge rate is going to be able to be provided by a respectably smaller battery bank than you might think. So, as opposed to sizing house batteries for energy usage without power going back in (say, powering your 38kwh in the earlier example in 24 hrs off of that 70% discharge capacity of a battery bank) you size to to the peak draw. The voltage of the system matters also - is it 12, 24, 36, 48v, or some other value? So the wattage in the charts I provided earlier (and we'll use the Usage chart here - the 5700 watts average in the green box) is what your battery system needs to be able to produce at the drop of a pin - after the inverter. So you would add to that 5700 watts what ever is lost in the inverter conversion process (the higher the input voltage the more efficient that is - so 36 or 48v as opposed to 12 or 24v). You can provide that power "hit" from a much smaller battery bank than 38kwh. It just wont last long - and that's where the EPU would kick on the engine to compensate. And that's where you burn your fossil fuel. So the cycle continues and you are, yet again, limited in how long you can boondock because you can only carry a limited supply of fossil fuel.

Without a source of energy to provide the energy you use no other technology matters. Battery technology is worthless, as high-end as some batteries are (like the Tesla car batteries - which you can purchase those from vendors such as EV Motor Verks - see here < link). If you have 100kwh of battery capacity and are able to charge that on-the-go as you drive to your boondocking location - as you use that energy while boondocking the batteries are going to discharge. What source is going to provide the power going back in to the battery bank to maintain it?

If you are using 38kwh per day that's some serious juice. In a sunny location that would take 13,500 watts worth of solar panels (or, 68 full size 200 watt panels, or if you want newer technology - 45 full size 300 watt panels). I won't draw out the math, but that 13,500 watt figure assumes 60% efficiency (you never size alternative energy systems to label peak power production - you'll set yourself up to fail every time if you do that).

So - in order to provide the energy by fossil fuel you better have a CDL, Hazmat endorsement, and a fuel tanker at your boondocking location. Otherwise, trim the power requirement, or go to an RV park where you can get your 50 amp service from the plug at your camp site. I don't think we'll ever see Nuclear power for any private use in any of our lifetimes. And a less complicated, safer technology (and the volatility of gasoline in quantity isn't exactly safe, either) than Nuclear is a pretty far-fetched idea at the moment. When you step outside of fossil fuels you land in alternative energy territory - wind, hydro, and solar power. Speaking of solar - offsetting the fuel requirement to keep up with 38kwh would take upwards of 68 solar panels (the big ones). Or, newer technology will land you with just 45 panels. Where are you going to put those where you camp? Let alone how are you going to get them there?

Again though, we can all dream. Somewhere between what we dream of today and where reality is today we find reality in that future. If the Wright Brothers could be around today and see how far aviation has come from their experiments I would imagine they would be quite impressed.

The other side of the energy/power coin is energy efficiency. How can, for example, air conditioning technology be improved so as to not consume so much energy? If you tackle the problem from both fronts - the consumption technology and the energy production technology - you start edging more and more towards an attainable reality somewhere in the middle.

What does that attainable reality look like? Or, rather, What could that attainable reality look like? I don't know - because we don't have an energy source that can be packaged in a way to do what we're asking - it doesn't exist. Even scaling down a Nuclear reactor doesn't fit the application well, safety and complexity aside. The picture of what the numbers can look like today are drawn out in posts #7, #10, and #13. Technologies can improve on that, of course. It won't be something you'll see come to fruition next year, 5 years down the road, or probably even in 10 years down the road. I'd like to hold that thought and wait until the year 2120 or so (another 100 years) then see what that point in time has to offer. Wouldn't that be cool to see?