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Depends on how many corners you want to cut i guess. For starters, i would find a new machine shop. Youre putting afr 185s on a 351 with 280 @.050 duration cam. Thats a 6500 rpm engine. As you increase rpm, the forces upon bearings, rod bolts, main caps increases exponentially. Even if youre not boring or shaving the crank i would NEVER stick an engine back together without having the cylinders honed in a machine, and the rotating bits mic'd for roundness, at least any engine i was keeping.. Heat cycles and wear and tear slowly deform the rods over time, this is why you recondition them. The pressure on the rod journals is not the same in every part of the rotation, this causes the crank journal to oblong, also the cylinder to taper. The hone is needed for the new (or old) rings to seat and rotate as they should. The more power you make, the faster you turn it, the tighter tolerances have to be. More power is more heat, more heat makes stuff grow, stock cast pistons are designed within a margin, go outside that margin, you stick a piston, butt a ring etc. Oil film strength and thickness becomes more important with effective bearing load and rpm. Too loose you cook the middle of the bearing, too tight you seize it. Factory blocks are almost always .010-.020" out of square, that means say #1 piston is .012" in the hole, and #8 might be .018" in the hole. Chamber volume can be 1.5cc off from port to port in the same head. Engines from the factory seem to be within an oz of balance, thats good enough for the AVERAGE pickup engine to run a normal life span, not so much a hot rod engine in which you shoot for a tenth oz (international was specifically know for having horrendous imbalance problems). On top of that theres stacked tolerances to account for, what makes one seemingly identical engine a great engine that runs forever and one thats junk? Have a great first hand comparison. My dads 63 (my great grandpas from new to ~75ish) In 1970 the 292 bent a rod, was knocking.. only a 7 year old pickup. Put a reman'd ford engine in it, when the speedometer died in 1988 the pickup had 488,000 miles on it, dad drove it every day until 2004. Why such different results from the same engine built in the same factory using the same procedures?
If theyre such high quality, why are you rebuilding it at all?
165 v 185
When we finally got down to running the two heads, we found the 165 vs. 185 head contest dead-simple to analyze. That's because in our combination, the 185 heads ran neck and neck with the smaller and supposedly torquier 165 heads up to 3,900 rpm plus a little, but from 4,000 rpm up to 5,800 rpm, where our camshaft had given up, the 185s exhibited a distinct advantage. So, the decision, at least at this power level, is clear. The 185s make notably more power on the top end and cost no power at all on the bottom end.
When we finally got down to running the two heads, we found the 165 vs. 185 head contest dead-simple to analyze. That's because in our combination, the 185 heads ran neck and neck with the smaller and supposedly torquier 165 heads up to 3,900 rpm plus a little, but from 4,000 rpm up to 5,800 rpm, where our camshaft had given up, the 185s exhibited a distinct advantage. So, the decision, at least at this power level, is clear. The 185s make notably more power on the top end and cost no power at all on the bottom end.
While ive not had the opportunity to run or test either one, all of my research points to the 165s working best on the 302/351, and the 185 even performing better on a 408 than the 205. One great dyno session in particular compared the two back to back. The 185 gave up 7or 8 up top, but had much better average power and a lower power band in general. This was iirc a ~500hp 408. Ive not been able to find the video again, was going to post it for reference.
Im with you on saving money, i really am, im currently porting a set of P heads. That said, theyre probably going to become shop ornaments now that i know about the new 185 as cast heads flowing so well and being so affordable. I did all the assembly on my 7.3, my 4.6, and my 390, i put my own gears in my 8.8. That said, they did all go to the machine shop and get checked out / balanced. I do not have the tools and experience to do most of the stuff, and the shop rate is pretty affordable. To recon a set of rods is usually about $30, thats cheap insurance to know you wont cook a rod bearing. I dont think they even charged me to polish the crank. The 7.3 i HAD to balance because of custom parts, the other two because piece of mind and its relatively inexpensive. Going before / after on a balanced engine is huuge. Once you see the difference you will never not do it. The shop will of course have to spin the crank and do the balance, but you can do the weight matching yourself with a cheap scale. I balanced all of my rods and pistons to eachother, saves a lot of shop labor. As for the more optional and expensive stuff, did i zero deck the 390/ 4.6, no. Did i do a poor mans resurface on both, yes. The 7.3 got all the bells and whistles because its over 800lb/ft and if i can find a dual disc clutch setup for under 2500, it will be even more yet. On top of line hone, cylinder hone, zero decking, new guides and exhaust valves, valve job, head assembly, i had 5 broken headbolts to be milled out, rods to be narrowed and rebushed and reconditioned, the balancing (which was a nightmare im told because of the heavier rods and wrist pins)... im sure im forgetting stuff and my bill was $1200 and some change. Im not knocking you, nor trying to discourage or anything, but too often you see people slap some emery cloth on a crank, dingle ball the cylinders, slap it back together with rings and bearings and call it rebuilt and think its a new engine.
While ive not had the opportunity to run or test either one, all of my research points to the 165s working best on the 302/351, and the 185 even performing better on a 408 than the 205. One great dyno session in particular compared the two back to back. The 185 gave up 7or 8 up top, but had much better average power and a lower power band in general. This was iirc a ~500hp 408. Ive not been able to find the video again, was going to post it for reference.
Im with you on saving money, i really am, im currently porting a set of P heads. That said, theyre probably going to become shop ornaments now that i know about the new 185 as cast heads flowing so well and being so affordable. I did all the assembly on my 7.3, my 4.6, and my 390, i put my own gears in my 8.8. That said, they did all go to the machine shop and get checked out / balanced. I do not have the tools and experience to do most of the stuff, and the shop rate is pretty affordable. To recon a set of rods is usually about $30, thats cheap insurance to know you wont cook a rod bearing. I dont think they even charged me to polish the crank. The 7.3 i HAD to balance because of custom parts, the other two because piece of mind and its relatively inexpensive. Going before / after on a balanced engine is huuge. Once you see the difference you will never not do it. The shop will of course have to spin the crank and do the balance, but you can do the weight matching yourself with a cheap scale. I balanced all of my rods and pistons to eachother, saves a lot of shop labor. As for the more optional and expensive stuff, did i zero deck the 390/ 4.6, no. Did i do a poor mans resurface on both, yes. The 7.3 got all the bells and whistles because its over 800lb/ft and if i can find a dual disc clutch setup for under 2500, it will be even more yet. On top of line hone, cylinder hone, zero decking, new guides and exhaust valves, valve job, head assembly, i had 5 broken headbolts to be milled out, rods to be narrowed and rebushed and reconditioned, the balancing (which was a nightmare im told because of the heavier rods and wrist pins)... im sure im forgetting stuff and my bill was $1200 and some change. Im not knocking you, nor trying to discourage or anything, but too often you see people slap some emery cloth on a crank, dingle ball the cylinders, slap it back together with rings and bearings and call it rebuilt and think its a new engine.
We must be in different locations. I’m in south jersey. I got quotes from 7 different locations and $1300 was the best price offered for a short block. i don’t like saying rebuild either, but that’s what’s on the kit, lol. This is An engine refresh. I’ve seen cranks after the machine shop and mine isn’t to that level of quality. Again though, I’m at $80 and time. if this works for a 351 roller, then it might just work on a y block 2.
this is what they say about the ford 303 cam(aka, alphabet cams) The Z303 camshaft. This cam is a lot like the X303, but even more extreme. This came has a ridiculous 552 intake and exhaust lift. You will definitely need to notch your stock pistons or buy aftermarket pistons that can even clear that much lift. Aftermarket heads are strongly recommended with this cam, otherwise, you’re just wasting your money. If you need the best drag racing cam possible, then the Z303 cam is for you.
it has less lift than your cam your looking at .549/.565, duration isnt helping, if this is going in a truck you will sell it when your done, see below what options you have, quite a few posted by Conanski
The Z cam is not that radical. I'm running it in my 331 with Canfield heads and 1.7 rockers. It would be even milder in a 351. Power with a repop 3x2 setup comes on at 1500 and pulls to 6500. He may not need to notch the stock 351 pistons, I would check the clearance first, they've got a deep dish in the centers
Edelbrock Performer or Lightning Intake for a 351w, Performer or GT40 for a 302, all preferably properly ported. The RPM II ports don't line up well with the AFR 165 heads and may produce a fair amount of turbulence. The Performer runner exits are a bit smaller and fit entirely inside the AFR 165's ports so port matching isn't a problem plus the cross sections and air speed characteristics of the two are a better match.
Cool. I have a GT40 lower ported by TMoss that I plan to use with a set of AFR 165 on a 331 stroker. Still, I should probably check the match with a gasket or something.
I spent some time on summit and reached out to the machine shop. It’s not worth an extra $1000 between balancing the engine and buying pistons. I’ll find a smaller cam.
thanks guys,
If you are going to let anyone talk you into a cam, talk to someone that knows them and go with a custom cam. Choosing a proper camshaft is probably one of the most confusing pieces of the engine puzzle for most people and probably the one part that most people get wrong. The cam specced for my 5000 rpm 357w build is slightly longer on the intake duration of the cam that you had chosen and on a 114 LSA. The lift is maxxed out for the AFR 165 heads that I am using. I'm sure yours would spec out differently.
On the topic of the AFR 165 heads and Edelbrock EFI Truck intake, the ports are nearly identical between the two. I think I had to touch up a couple spots on the intake with a hand file but they were a 95% match out of the box. I can also attest that the 165 heads will produce a healthy amount of torque, but I honestly doubt you'd notice the difference going to 185cc heads. I think the dyno session that hairyboxnoogle is referencing is the one from Motortrend's Engine Masters show, where they test the AFR heads for Dave Freiburger's Mustang.
I use my 89 F350 to pull trailers regularly (see combo in the sig), and I have never been disappointed with the amount of power that it has. I rarely have to shift out of 4th gear (1:1 ratio, no OD).
With that said, I have taken no part of any of my motors to a machine shop. The recipe to the bottom end on my motors is very simple. Stock crank, stock rods, Speed Pro hyper-eutectic pistons with a 12cc dish. Dingle ball hone the block, polish the crank by hand, press out old wrist pins with a cheap hydraulic press. I made a jig to set depth for putting in wrist pins after heating up the eye of the rod with an LP torch. Mic journals and bores. Toss the bottom end together and double check with plastigage. I don't know what kind of longevity the bottom end of these motors will have, but so far the 89 is going on 7 years and 15k miles like this with no issues and the 94 bangs 7k RPM on the pulling track every weekend from May to September. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should build their motors, but I think there is too much scrutiny of people trying to get things done with what they have and not by the book. You can home brew a lot of junkyard motors in your garage for the cost of taking one bottom end to a machine shop at the price Budro was quoted.
On the topic of the AFR 165 heads and Edelbrock EFI Truck intake, the ports are nearly identical between the two. I think I had to touch up a couple spots on the intake with a hand file but they were a 95% match out of the box. I can also attest that the 165 heads will produce a healthy amount of torque, but I honestly doubt you'd notice the difference going to 185cc heads. I think the dyno session that hairyboxnoogle is referencing is the one from Motortrend's Engine Masters show, where they test the AFR heads for Dave Freiburger's Mustang.
I use my 89 F350 to pull trailers regularly (see combo in the sig), and I have never been disappointed with the amount of power that it has. I rarely have to shift out of 4th gear (1:1 ratio, no OD).
With that said, I have taken no part of any of my motors to a machine shop. The recipe to the bottom end on my motors is very simple. Stock crank, stock rods, Speed Pro hyper-eutectic pistons with a 12cc dish. Dingle ball hone the block, polish the crank by hand, press out old wrist pins with a cheap hydraulic press. I made a jig to set depth for putting in wrist pins after heating up the eye of the rod with an LP torch. Mic journals and bores. Toss the bottom end together and double check with plastigage. I don't know what kind of longevity the bottom end of these motors will have, but so far the 89 is going on 7 years and 15k miles like this with no issues and the 94 bangs 7k RPM on the pulling track every weekend from May to September. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should build their motors, but I think there is too much scrutiny of people trying to get things done with what they have and not by the book. You can home brew a lot of junkyard motors in your garage for the cost of taking one bottom end to a machine shop at the price Budro was quoted.
Amen Brother I did a build with a reman roller 5.0 shortblock (City Motor Supply, Dallas Tx) years ago and all I did to the short block was change the rod bolts to ARP's (with the assembly intact Topped it with home ported E7's, Ford Racing A321 intake and a B303 cam with 1.7 Cobra rockers (bought used with 100K on them) Beat on that motor for a year and a half in my 89 Ranger (daily driver) backed by a Toploader 4 speed. Then I acquired a set of Canfield heads and put them on it with a Vic Jr. After a month and a half with several trips to 7500 rpms it cracked the #4 cylinder wall midway in the bore. Rotating assembly was fine. Sold the rods and pistons to someone else. Reused the crank in another build. I've pulled junkyard motors apart that were so worn, it was amazing they were still running when parked. Oh and those Cobra rockers ? They're in my 96 E150's 351 with another 60K on them, after being in another roller 5.0 in that Ranger for 5 years.
On the topic of the AFR 165 heads and Edelbrock EFI Truck intake, the ports are nearly identical between the two. I think I had to touch up a couple spots on the intake with a hand file but they were a 95% match out of the box. I can also attest that the 165 heads will produce a healthy amount of torque, but I honestly doubt you'd notice the difference going to 185cc heads. I think the dyno session that hairyboxnoogle is referencing is the one from Motortrend's Engine Masters show, where they test the AFR heads for Dave Freiburger's Mustang.
I use my 89 F350 to pull trailers regularly (see combo in the sig), and I have never been disappointed with the amount of power that it has. I rarely have to shift out of 4th gear (1:1 ratio, no OD).
With that said, I have taken no part of any of my motors to a machine shop. The recipe to the bottom end on my motors is very simple. Stock crank, stock rods, Speed Pro hyper-eutectic pistons with a 12cc dish. Dingle ball hone the block, polish the crank by hand, press out old wrist pins with a cheap hydraulic press. I made a jig to set depth for putting in wrist pins after heating up the eye of the rod with an LP torch. Mic journals and bores. Toss the bottom end together and double check with plastigage. I don't know what kind of longevity the bottom end of these motors will have, but so far the 89 is going on 7 years and 15k miles like this with no issues and the 94 bangs 7k RPM on the pulling track every weekend from May to September. I'm not saying this is the way everyone should build their motors, but I think there is too much scrutiny of people trying to get things done with what they have and not by the book. You can home brew a lot of junkyard motors in your garage for the cost of taking one bottom end to a machine shop at the price Budro was quoted.
Thanks for the added boost of confidence!!
Quick question:
Anybody here use CRC brake lube instead of the ARP torque lube? A friend said he's been doing it for years. I was going to order the ARP tq lube today, but thought I should ask.
I understand there's some added risk to this type of refresh. When I was talking to the machinist (installed cam bearings) he expressed his dismay, lol. I guess $1500 isn't worth an extra 30-50k miles, when alot of guys get 30-50k on a shadetree rebuild. That's just my perspective on the topic, I'm not saying it's the right way. Far as heads, if I can get 165 or 185s at the same price I'd rather go with the head that'll let me grow in the future. When the engine does need a rebuild/machine work, I'll stroke it out. Really make a set of 185s work.
I'll post the outcome on here. This was more of a science project, so I won't be ashamed if it fails. Just means I'll be paying for that machine work after all. It's a 59 F100, so won't take more than 2-4 hours to install / check / pull it, if we have catastrophe at start up.
I have plenty of doubters, lol. Friends included, but No one has said they tried a shade tree rebuild, everything was in spec and the engine failed anyway.
I'm originally from the Show Me state. Guess, I gotta see it with my own eyes.
I bought the valve checker, but the rockers weren't removing the marker from the tips of the valves. It looks like the hydraulic rollers give 2 much for a good solid read. The stock length removed marker just north of the center line 1-2 times. I used comp cam check springs, because I was told it would prevent squashing the roller. I've read that some guys use washers to prevent the rollers crushing/losing oil. Any body have a link/youtube video or similar you could point me towards for reference? I read that some people buy a solid tappet. Do we know how much squish is taking place? Is there a measurement I could add to the checker for proper valve train geometry?
Ex.... Do we know how much the hydraulic rollers sink in without oil? I can put together a math formula, which would get me close to length.
These head studs were torqued in the correct sequence, but I expected the stud to be more exposed. I think I received the wrong stud kit here. These are probably for a 302. Another 1/2" would be perfect.
I would NOT run those head studs as-is. The ARP head studs in my 351w's stick up past the nut at least 1/4". I don't know if the issue there is the studs being short, or the head you're using being thicker than "standard" on the deck.
302s use 7/16" head bolts, 351w's use 1/2" by the way.
When I measure for pushrods, unless I know before hand that the cam uses a small base circle, I just stick a stock length rod in with the springs that I will be using, put dry-erase marker on the valve tip and roll it over. If that comes up being far off, then I stick an adjustable checker in with a soft spring.
As far as the hydraulic tappet wanting to compress, you've got few options. I have a couple old roller tappets that I have welded solid for checking length. Works great. Alternatively, you could disassemble a roller tappet and stack it full of dimes (or pennys if they fit) and reassemble for a mock up unit that won't compress. I think Thunderhead289 on youtube has a video of disassembling lifters, can't remember if he was rebuilding them or making solid checkers, but that should help.
I would NOT run those head studs as-is. The ARP head studs in my 351w's stick up past the nut at least 1/4". I don't know if the issue there is the studs being short, or the head you're using being thicker than "standard" on the deck.
302s use 7/16" head bolts, 351w's use 1/2" by the way.
When I measure for pushrods, unless I know before hand that the cam uses a small base circle, I just stick a stock length rod in with the springs that I will be using, put dry-erase marker on the valve tip and roll it over. If that comes up being far off, then I stick an adjustable checker in with a soft spring.
As far as the hydraulic tappet wanting to compress, you've got few options. I have a couple old roller tappets that I have welded solid for checking length. Works great. Alternatively, you could disassemble a roller tappet and stack it full of dimes (or pennys if they fit) and reassemble for a mock up unit that won't compress. I think Thunderhead289 on youtube has a video of disassembling lifters, can't remember if he was rebuilding them or making solid checkers, but that should help.
Down Sea Isle today, but I will check this out tomorrow!! Thanks for the tip, I've watched a few of Thunderhead's videos. Super informative. I'll send the studs back to the dealer. I should've figured $90 studs were to good to be true.
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I did a build with a reman roller 5.0 shortblock (City Motor Supply, Dallas Tx) years ago and all I did to the short block was change the rod bolts to ARP's (with the assembly intact 
Topped it with home ported E7's, Ford Racing A321 intake and a B303 cam with 1.7 Cobra rockers (bought used with 100K on them) Beat on that motor for a year and a half in my 89 Ranger (daily driver) backed by a Toploader 4 speed. Then I acquired a set of Canfield heads and put them on it with a Vic Jr. After a month and a half with several trips to 7500 rpms it cracked the #4 cylinder wall midway in the bore. Rotating assembly was fine. Sold the rods and pistons to someone else. Reused the crank in another build. I've pulled junkyard motors apart that were so worn, it was amazing they were still running when parked. Oh and those Cobra rockers ? They're in my 96 E150's 351 with another 60K on them, after being in another roller 5.0 in that Ranger for 5 years.
