OD or 5 speed
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,006
Likes: 72
From: Roseville, MN
Interesting comments...will look for a 5 speed and see what a reman/rebuilt will set me back...the OD looks to be too much $$..and I'm not looking to spend a whole lot on this project... Will let you all know how it all works out. For now, the 4 speed is working fine...just wish I had a taller gear in 4th. And the "granny...well, if I start in 2nd, that poor clutch really gets a work out...so "granny" is what I start out in.
Do you know what rear gear ratio you have in the truck? Yea 2nd gear starts with the T18 in mine is also ruff on the clutch. Because the trans needs a rebuild with some gears replaced and finding a NP435 for just the rebuild kit (less gears) I went with the 435 and it also has a lower 2nd gear so should be easier on the clutch .... I hope....
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,006
Likes: 72
From: Roseville, MN
Personally I haven't heard anyone call the Mazda trans a ZF, but technically they are both M5OD. In Ford-speak that's Manual 5 speed OverDrive which describes both. I believe it was Number Dummy that said the M5OD made by ZF (often called ZF5) was called M5OD-HD by Ford, while the M5OD made by Mazda (often just called M5OD) was called something like M5OD-R2 by Ford. For what that's worth...
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
Hey Matthew,
Did the ZF5 lose the speedo cable drive in 1992 like the M5OD did? I know that is an issue with the 4x2 F150 swaps. The M5OD 5spd only had speedo cable drive between 1988-1991, as I believe the speedo output switched to the rearend in 1992. Not an issue for the 4x4 guys, but curious about the 4x2 ZF5. Of course the 1992-1996 transmissions fit and function fine, and some guys don't care about the speedo, so there is that.
Did the ZF5 lose the speedo cable drive in 1992 like the M5OD did? I know that is an issue with the 4x2 F150 swaps. The M5OD 5spd only had speedo cable drive between 1988-1991, as I believe the speedo output switched to the rearend in 1992. Not an issue for the 4x4 guys, but curious about the 4x2 ZF5. Of course the 1992-1996 transmissions fit and function fine, and some guys don't care about the speedo, so there is that.
The S5-42 was used a by a pile of companies Mercedes, Citroen, DAF, Iveco, Volvo etc in most of those applications the trans had a separate bell housing.
The other option is to use an S5-47 with an aftermarket electric speedo cable drive, If you go this route then you could also opt for the ZF S6-650 6 Speed.
You may be able to find a S6-650 cheaper than the S5-42 as the 6 speed still turns up at the U pull it yards fairly frequently.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,844
Likes: 129
From: Atlantic Canada
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
Personally I haven't heard anyone call the Mazda trans a ZF, but technically they are both M5OD. In Ford-speak that's Manual 5 speed OverDrive which describes both. I believe it was Number Dummy that said the M5OD made by ZF (often called ZF5) was called M5OD-HD by Ford, while the M5OD made by Mazda (often just called M5OD) was called something like M5OD-R2 by Ford. For what that's worth...
That is not correct, the M5OD stands for Mazda 5 speed OverDrive. Fords manual transmission designation in the era includes the manufacturer as the first part of the designation unless it is an in house/Borg Warner unit.
Also the units used in the F-series are the M5OD-R2 which is a much heavier trans than the M5OD-R1 which was used in the Ranger and Mada B series.
Also given the choice between the R2 M5 and the ZF I would take the ZF as the M5 R2's first gear is very high. This is fine for a street truck or play truck that gets used like a car, but if it is expected to do any work they are hard on clutches with that high first gear.
FTE Legend
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 4,122
From: Angier, NC
Also given the choice between the R2 M5 and the ZF I would take the ZF as the M5 R2's first gear is very high. This is fine for a street truck or play truck that gets used like a car, but if it is expected to do any work they are hard on clutches with that high first gear.
I also under stand that is 1 of Cory's complaints with the R2, high first gear and with his rear gear the RPM comes down to much when in OD for his motor (built up a little 302) where he drives.
Being a play truck he could go with a lower rear gear and make the truck all around better driver.
As for going higher gear out back and starting off in first (non-sync) granny gear and drive it like a 4sp is no fun. Mine is a bear to get it out of granny in a parking lot at work I would never and have not used granny gear from a stop on the street. It is slow enough going from 2nd to 3rd people want to run into the back of me and I have a 2.75 rear gear.
Dave ----
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
That is what I posted earlier, for a work truck use the ZF, play truck the M5OD-R2.
I also under stand that is 1 of Cory's complaints with the R2, high first gear and with his rear gear the RPM comes down to much when in OD for his motor (built up a little 302) where he drives.
Being a play truck he could go with a lower rear gear and make the truck all around better driver.
----
I also under stand that is 1 of Cory's complaints with the R2, high first gear and with his rear gear the RPM comes down to much when in OD for his motor (built up a little 302) where he drives.
Being a play truck he could go with a lower rear gear and make the truck all around better driver.
----
Ya this has been discussed in the past already, IIRC he has 3:08's or like in the diff.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,844
Likes: 129
From: Atlantic Canada
I also under stand that is 1 of Cory's complaints with the R2, high first gear and with his rear gear the RPM comes down to much when in OD for his motor (built up a little 302) where he drives.
Being a play truck he could go with a lower rear gear and make the truck all around better driver.
The M5OD-R2 gets a bit of a bad rap for being a weak transmission, but at least a bit of that is internet dogma. For every guy you hear calling them trash, you'll find another guy with 300,000 miles on one and has never touched it. Some trucks only ever see a handful of 2x4's thrown in them, or a sheet of plywood, etc.
I think it's pretty clearly cut that if you want a proper truck transmission for doing any kind of work, the ZF-5 is the way to go. The M5OD-R2 is quite easy in that is only comes in the one style where as the ZF-5 comes in Big block, small block, gas, diesel, etc,.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,983
Likes: 2,736
From: Virginia
Interesting comments...will look for a 5 speed and see what a reman/rebuilt will set me back...the OD looks to be too much $$..and I'm not looking to spend a whole lot on this project... Will let you all know how it all works out. For now, the 4 speed is working fine...just wish I had a taller gear in 4th. And the "granny...well, if I start in 2nd, that poor clutch really gets a work out...so "granny" is what I start out in.
What you do is take the bellhousing adapter off the back of your diesel block. Your diesel block has a odd duck international bell pattern. Ford made a adapter to adapt the international pattern to another oddball pattern for the Ford diesels (idiotic I know). You take this adapter off and using the top two bolt holes bolt it to the 460 zf transmission. This is your drill guide. You then drill the couple of holes to make the 460 trans line up with the diesel adapter, done. I have never personally done this, but several people have and say it works fine. It does give you a deeper 1st gear than the diesel trans has. So more of a granny like the 4 speed has.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,983
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From: Virginia
Here's some more info on it.
4 holes and 2 dowels are different, the top ones will work.
460 to a diesel zf. After drilling.
blue original idi holes
pink idi dowels
green 460 bolts
brown 460 dowels
red 460 starter.
Here's the original thread where I got the above from. https://www.oilburners.net/threads/c...ith-idi.34788/
4 holes and 2 dowels are different, the top ones will work.
460 to a diesel zf. After drilling.
blue original idi holes
pink idi dowels
green 460 bolts
brown 460 dowels
red 460 starter.
Here's the original thread where I got the above from. https://www.oilburners.net/threads/c...ith-idi.34788/
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,006
Likes: 72
From: Roseville, MN
Dave was referring to my story. The M5OD-R2 trans in my truck came out of a 1991 F250 2wd. The guy had originally listed it for sale as a ZF-5 transmission because the truck was an F250, and he just assumed that is what it was. There were some F250's sold with the Mazda M5OD-R2 if they were under 8500 GVWR. Some people aren't aware of this and assume that if the truck is a F250 that it automatically has the heavier ZF5.
Lead Driver
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,006
Likes: 72
From: Roseville, MN
That is not correct, the M5OD stands for Mazda 5 speed OverDrive. Fords manual transmission designation in the era includes the manufacturer as the first part of the designation unless it is an in house/Borg Warner unit.
Also the units used in the F-series are the M5OD-R2 which is a much heavier trans than the M5OD-R1 which was used in the Ranger and Mada B series.
Also given the choice between the R2 M5 and the ZF I would take the ZF as the M5 R2's first gear is very high. This is fine for a street truck or play truck that gets used like a car, but if it is expected to do any work they are hard on clutches with that high first gear.
Also the units used in the F-series are the M5OD-R2 which is a much heavier trans than the M5OD-R1 which was used in the Ranger and Mada B series.
Also given the choice between the R2 M5 and the ZF I would take the ZF as the M5 R2's first gear is very high. This is fine for a street truck or play truck that gets used like a car, but if it is expected to do any work they are hard on clutches with that high first gear.
FTE Legend
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 30,906
Likes: 4,122
From: Angier, NC
I don't know if I'd call it a complaint per se, but it's worth pointing out. I actually love my M5OD-R2 and personally wouldn't want a ZF-5 for what I do with the truck. I think the 302 is partly to blame as well. The 5spd and 3.08 probably works better with the lower end torque of the 300 inline 6. My little 302 is a little bit hum drum in the lower RPM's, but is quite sporty above 2000 RPM. I wouldn't recommend my set up to anybody that needed to haul or tow a lot, but for a cruiser, it's fine. Part of my goal with this thing was to have it hit (or almost hit) 20 MPG highway, so even if 3.55's would feel better around town, I'll live with the 3.08's for what I do with the truck.
The M5OD-R2 gets a bit of a bad rap for being a weak transmission, but at least a bit of that is internet dogma. For every guy you hear calling them trash, you'll find another guy with 300,000 miles on one and has never touched it. Some trucks only ever see a handful of 2x4's thrown in them, or a sheet of plywood, etc.
I think it's pretty clearly cut that if you want a proper truck transmission for doing any kind of work, the ZF-5 is the way to go. The M5OD-R2 is quite easy in that is only comes in the one style where as the ZF-5 comes in Big block, small block, gas, diesel, etc,.
The M5OD-R2 gets a bit of a bad rap for being a weak transmission, but at least a bit of that is internet dogma. For every guy you hear calling them trash, you'll find another guy with 300,000 miles on one and has never touched it. Some trucks only ever see a handful of 2x4's thrown in them, or a sheet of plywood, etc.
I think it's pretty clearly cut that if you want a proper truck transmission for doing any kind of work, the ZF-5 is the way to go. The M5OD-R2 is quite easy in that is only comes in the one style where as the ZF-5 comes in Big block, small block, gas, diesel, etc,.
I see with the 3.08 gear and the OD your final ratio is 2.46:1and little over 2000 RPM@70 MPH
With 3.55 gear and OD the final is 2.84:1and a little under 2400 RPM@70 MPH
Do they make a 3.25 for your axle?
I wonder if the motor was to spin a little more to get into the power band more if that would help MPG?
If I remember you have not had a chance to get a good drive to check MPG have you?
Aint playing with number fun
Dave ----
Lead Driver
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,958
Likes: 105
From: Houston
Do you know what rear gear ratio you have in the truck? Yea 2nd gear starts with the T18 in mine is also ruff on the clutch. Because the trans needs a rebuild with some gears replaced and finding a NP435 for just the rebuild kit (less gears) I went with the 435 and it also has a lower 2nd gear so should be easier on the clutch .... I hope.
A 3.00:1 might be good for a 302 on the high way but I can tell you even with 2.75:1 at 70 MPH the 300 six is turning 2500 RPM.
I want to get down to 1500 to 1800 RPM at 70 MPH, right now I am 2300 at 65 MPH
If I figured the math right with my 2.75 rear gear and the AA OD unit I should end up with a 2.01 rear gear and that should put my RPM at 1650 at 70 MPH
That was the other thing I had to over come in that hay stack for a ZF swap, small block bell & need a speedo cable hook up on a 4x2 trans.
And then you have like what you found, someone calling the M5OD a ZF transmission.
From what I hear the ZF & M5OD shift really nice compared to the T18 / T19 / NP435 truck transmission but with the wide power band of the 300 it is not bad as you don't have to shift a lot.
Because you also can not shift them fast you get to take your time and enjoy the drive at a slower pace
I think anyone wanting to go with over drive transmission needs to do there home work on all the options out there and what they want to use the truck for.
If stick and street truck the M5OD might be the way to go.
Work truck then the ZF might be the way to go.
Auto then the AOD transmission might be the way to go.
Or either of the add on OD units (GV or AA) might be the way to go.
Just my .02
Dave ----
A 3.00:1 might be good for a 302 on the high way but I can tell you even with 2.75:1 at 70 MPH the 300 six is turning 2500 RPM.
I want to get down to 1500 to 1800 RPM at 70 MPH, right now I am 2300 at 65 MPH
If I figured the math right with my 2.75 rear gear and the AA OD unit I should end up with a 2.01 rear gear and that should put my RPM at 1650 at 70 MPH
That was the other thing I had to over come in that hay stack for a ZF swap, small block bell & need a speedo cable hook up on a 4x2 trans.
And then you have like what you found, someone calling the M5OD a ZF transmission.
From what I hear the ZF & M5OD shift really nice compared to the T18 / T19 / NP435 truck transmission but with the wide power band of the 300 it is not bad as you don't have to shift a lot.
Because you also can not shift them fast you get to take your time and enjoy the drive at a slower pace
I think anyone wanting to go with over drive transmission needs to do there home work on all the options out there and what they want to use the truck for.
If stick and street truck the M5OD might be the way to go.
Work truck then the ZF might be the way to go.
Auto then the AOD transmission might be the way to go.
Or either of the add on OD units (GV or AA) might be the way to go.
Just my .02
Dave ----