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So I finally had the mental acuity to actually check the 8BA that came with my 49 F3.
I had always been able to turn the engine by hand/ratchet and observed compression (but didn't measure it), spark plugs were reasonably clean, oil and coolant looked good, but as the engine was missing a fuel tank and the fuel bowl gasket was shot, and battery cables bad, I never tried to start it (excuses, excuses...)
Here's what I found.
Intake removal:
Gasket had disintegrated badly. I didn't take a picture but it was falling apart in my hands.
Valve action/seats looks reasonable but there is a lot of old oil grime.
Head cover removal:
Water jacket corrosion is reasonable, but pumps work.
Cylinder walls look pretty good, one piston is bad (missing a small chunk). Carbon deposits plus some intake gasket remnants abound.
I saw one possible crack, but am not sure (see close-up photos)
I will drop the pan to look at the bottom end in the next few days (I expect the Hades of infrequently changed oil there as well ...)
So given that at least pistons and rings would need to be done (other than cleaning and new gaskets everywhere), it would likely be time do some other stuff, likely a full rebuild, especially if the cylinders need to be bored (depending on the shape they are actually in).
Given the cost of the machine shop work, parts, and the work involved to reassemble, even if I don't do a full rebuild (plus the carb rebuild that is probably also needed), I wonder whether it is not more economical/sensible/quicker to just drop in a 302 with EFI.
I have an engine from a 2000 Explorer 5.0 (I think that's a roller "HO"-type 302), a Mustang bell-housing and pressure plate (all junkyard stuff in good shape) to match the S-10 T-5 I have. Would need to get the correct flywheel since the donor was automatic.
I already have a rear gas tank in the works so I would just use a high-pressure external pump instead of the low-pressure one I was planning, plus some regulation. Gas tank has return lines etc,
Add an Edelbrock EFI or Holley Sniper TBI and call it a day... it would be a more useful truck, roll better with my 3.54 rear end in OD, could likely tow reasonably, more powah for eventual AC and power steering - I am planning on being able to use it what it was meant for, i.e. a pickup truck, not a show car - but.. [Insert Sweet Sickness symptoms here]
What does the FTE crew think (other than: "why the hell did you not look at the engine innards first thing when - or better, before - you started"... I know, I know)?
Thanks,
Dre
Passenger Side Driver Side Maybe a crack? Hard to tell. Most Cylinders/pistons look like this This one is a goner. The Valley of Oil Crud The one lifter peeking out looks shiny.
Passenger side third cylinder back from the front (# 3 cylinder) between exhaust valve and cylinder wall appears to be cracked. Althought its really hard to see in the pictures, you will need to scrape or wire wheel those areas of all carbon build up etc to see any cracks, also look closely in the top portion of the bore in those locations.
ive seen plenty of runner flatheads with those cracks and they seem fine, its just a matter of when will one open up more and or a problem surface?
The one picture of the crack from water jacket hole to head bolt hole is very common and almost every flathead ive seen has that and shouldnt cause any problems.
I love the flatheads but like you mentioned wanting some modern comforts of ac and more power etc maybe the sbf would be a better way to go? Hey, at least your thinking ford in a ford.
Depends on your budget. That block looks like it might be a candidate for a rebuild. If there is a crack between a cylinder and a valve it can possibly be pinned. If so, expect the cost of pinning, boring and sleeving the cylinder, and boring and inserting a valve seat.
Depending upon where you live, a complete rebuild could run $4,000 to $8,000. I had mine rebuilt 3 years ago, a complete rebuild including the crack repair described above, hardened valve seats all around, magnafluxed block, crank, and cam, pressure test block, grind and polish crank and cam, cylinder boring, line bore, square decking, new pistons, rings, valves, etc. Cost me $8,000. Runs great, and I'm glad that I could afford to do it.
If your budget doesn't allow for a complete rebuild, I would ask for advice as to the minimum necessary to get it running and not damage it. In my mind, that would still require a complete teardown and a thorough cleaning of components to determine what is reusable and what needs to be replaced, all of which you can do yourself with a copy of the shop manual and some elbow grease. I tore mine down myself and cleaned everything with degreaser and my power washer before I took it to the machine shop.
Once you have it cleaned up and get a price on your rebuild, you can decide which way to go. Whatever you decide, DO NOT scrap the block if it is rebuildable, as these blocks in decent shape are becoming rare.
I personally have no experience with the engine swap you propose, but I'm sure that someone here can guide you on that, and give you an idea of the cost and work involved.
After seeing what it cost John to keep his Flathead, I can see why people swap to something else. But, what will it cost to do the swap? Also, $8K for an engine that makes under 100 HP stock! Tough decision.
I guess it comes down to how you want to use the truck. Looks like you already have a lot of the swap parts on hand. I get the feeling you're leaning that direction. But, yeah, Flatty's are cool.
Whatever you decide, post your build for all of us to enjoy. Good luck and Happy New Year!
Let me know when you want me to haul that greasy, cracked Flathead out of your garage.
Josh: I checked the photos (in full res) and the block itself again this morning (how better to start the New Year?).
It is just carbon buildup, the low res photo sort of makes it appear like a crack, but I will put some cleaning time into it over the next week to see what might come up from under the grime.
John: When I asked at a local machine shop what a full rebuild would cost, they threw the $8000 figure at me, which is definitely out of my budget for this.
That said, I was planning for a complete teardown and cleaning, if not necessarily for use then for the learning experience (Flatheads are cool), and then get an estimate again.
And yes, I would not toss the block unless it was truly unfixable; I would definitely rather give it to someone who can use it, than let it go to waste.
As far as the engine swap, that is pretty straightforward to me and there is a ton of lore and knowledge on the board, so I feel pretty good about it, should I go that route.
Do both! Do the swap and scrounge for deals on parts for the Flathead. Plenty of members on Ford Barn put them together sometimes with used parts. Even if you just clean it up and get it running on a stand would be cool. Easier to sell a running Flathead if you decide to go that route.
Maybe after a good cleanup you will find it just needs to be freshened up? Sell your swap parts to pay for that? You have options for sure. Is your head spinning yet?
It is a tough decision. I can say that I love the flatheads. I rebuilt the flathead in my 53 Crestline Victoria and I did most of the work and had a friend do the machine work. It still cost me $3500. My 51 F1 didn't come with a drivetrain so I installed a 302 and C6 out of a truck that I purchased for $200. I freshened up the 302 and C6, I am into it for $1200 total including a new aluminum rad. Depends what you are going for. My car is more of a show car and I love the reaction when people see the flatty. I am going to drive my truck everyday so I chose a more modern engine where I can get parts anywhere if I break down out of town.
I cringe when I see people getting quotes of $4k - $8k for a stock rebuild. I'm somewhat spoiled because the shops around here are used to doing flatheads and know better than to gouge for the work. The shop I used does maybe 20 flatheads a year, and their price sheets don't differentiate between flatheads and OHV engines except for doing a valve job with stock lifters on a flathead, which they charge an extra $100 for. The cost to bore, cut valves, install seats, mill heads, etc. is the exact same as for a SBC or SBF. My rebuild in '13 with +.030" bore, new pistons (cast, nothing fancy), Hastings rings, Clevite bearings, valve job (using adjustable lifters), crank cut and polished, magnaflux, etc. came to $2500 +/-. That is within dollars of what my son's 302 cost for the same level of work.
But it's kind of irrelevant, if you are going to want PS and A/C, throw your 5.0 in it. You probably want to find a Mustang GT T5 tho, and put the S10 tailhousing on it. The S10 gears suck for a V8. Is the T5 a World Class? You'll want that.
Scott:
That is sort of what I am leaning towards.
Interestingly, the Mustang bell-housing compared to the flathead flywheel housing/T-5 clutch-housing combo I have is about the same depth (within 1/8"), so the trans crossmember and driveshaft could serve both engines.
allout:
That's what I figure it will be (around $1500) all said to have a running setup.
Ross, whenever I am ready to rebuild my Flathead I may be taking a cruise to Albuquerque. There's ONE shop near me that specializes in Flatheads. I haven't talked to them yet. If they are "gougers", I'll be taking a road trip.
In the end it all boils down to what you want when you're finished and what you want to do with it. If you want an original type restoration, then you'll want an original engine in it. Another option could be to get a different same year motor instead of rebuilding the one you have. These don't have "numbers matching" blocks as far as I know, I think they're date stamped, so a motor from the same general time frame would be "correct".
In the end, with these trucks, having a modern v8 in them does not make it worth less. In some vehicles the original drivetrain is a plus on value, not so much on these. Take comparable trucks side by side, one original and the other with a modern v8, transmission, rear end, disc brakes, the modified truck will bring more money unless we're talking about a concours type restoration. So the money you put in it might come back someday when you eventually sell it.
If you want to drive it, there's no question that the newer powerplant will be better. I'm faced with a similar decision, I'm not 100% sure that the motor in mine is good, I'm not going to put thousands of dollars in machine shop work into a motor that will bring the truck to 45 MPH, I'd rather spend the money on something that I can use more. But if the motor is good, then I'll keep what I have. Don't worry about what anyone else thinks, how do you want to use it? That will give you your answer!
