I’m all for things like the disaster prevention kit..,,

the only gotcha is waiting til after warranty....

 

I want the air fuel filter first. I'll get a DPK down the line.

 

The Air Filter seems like a good thing for sure!

 

I can barely hear it above the idle of the truck when standing by the pump, but I can hear it and it's not a smooth constant buzz, it's more of a buzz with an occasional skip a beat sound, put a few on some 6.7's around the same time I did mine, they all sounded this way and were all hard to prime. Had AirDog not been going through growing pains / quality control issues at the time, I'd likely have one of those on mine or these new AFE systems, they seem pretty sweet, only seen one on a Duramax, was quiet and worked well it seemed, don't know the longevity or reliability statistics on them. Another option is the H&S motor sports fuel system, but it is rather expensive at $1100+

 

Thats funny!!! I was telling him not to spend money. Wasting money is the new normal? If I had your money I could burn mine I guess.

 

im not gonna get in the middle of this deal, but you both live in states where taxes and cost of living are absurd, I’m the one that could burn all my money if I had yours.

 

Isn't that the truth. Its even more stupid here in Ca than you even know. The money is only the 1/2 of it. That's why I can't buy parts and just leave them on the bench. If the Gov knew I had a bench they would tax it also.
Sometimes Overkill and I disagree and sometimes we don't but than I'm not overkill

 

Yet again, my point proven. Apparently someone has to get approval from another of our resident "experts" here before they spent their own money. I love how what someone else does with their own truck matters so much to someone else that they feel compelled to comment. But of course, to each his or her own... Have a nice day Bone.



No worries bobcat. Yes our taxes are high but I don't think cost of living is crazy. Fuel is not as high as say PA. I know we are cheaper than CA. Since you brought it up, what affects cost of living is the area you live. It's cheaper to live in Buffalo, Rochester or Syracuse than it is New York City. Look here for reference:

https://www.salary.com/research/cost-of-living/ny

But we have the four seasons. Housing in my area is cheaper than in other places. You can get a lot of house for your money here but the taxes are high. In other states, houses are more but the taxes are cheap. I think there is a trade off at times though when it comes to living in other states. For example, taxes may be cheap but they nail you for vehicle registrations as in the newer the vehicle is, the higher it costs to register it. I can't recall what state I heard that about. So while our taxes are high, our bars stay open til 4 am, we have four seasons, big deer, and live next to one of the world's largest supply of fresh water. We get snow, sure, but we don't usually have to worry about earth quakes, tornadoes and floods or wildfires, hurricanes, volcanoes or mudslides. But God bless the people that do. Am I defending the people of my state? Yes I am. But what I am not defending is our state gov't, high taxes, progressive legislation nor the upcoming major changes within our law enforcement arena. I think Cali has it worse off than we do. Sorry for the slight hijack OP. I'll step down off the soap box now.

Back on topic here. Whether one wants to believe that air is a problem is their own responsibility. Air as a contaminant has been addressed by major players in the diesel world. I haven't seen this statement from Parker Racor before so I'll post here.


https://www.parker.com/literature/Ra...iesel_Fuel.pdf


On page 2, you can find this:



Simple Illustration of the Phenomena

Many years ago this writer was challenged by two separate customers on two different occasions to prove that a filter from which they could see air bubbles exiting, did not have leaks allowing air to be drawn into the filter. The demonstration consisted of using an open top 50 gallon drum filled with diesel fuel to submerge the filter in. The filter inlet had no fittings, but was simply exposed to the fuel in which the filter was submerged. The outlet was connected by means of a clear line to the inlet side of an electric fuel pump as planned to be used in the production vehicle. The outlet of the pump was directed to the top of the drum of fuel. After completely filling the test filter with fuel, the filter was turned upside down so that the sediment collection bowl was on the top end of the assembly in the drum of fuel. The prediction that in 20 minutes the fuel filter assembly would float to the top of the drum was met with skepticism. But in about 20 minutes, up it came! The customer’s engineers were finally convinced that the bubbles were the result of entrained air being coalesced out of the fuel, and not from leaks.

Some visible bubbles can be the result of fuel going into a vapor. Depending on the fuel temperature, at about 12 inches of mercury, diesel fuel will begin to vaporize and a stream of bubbles may be seen emanating from the point of the lowest negative pressure. Fuel vapor bubbles disappear as soon as the negative pressure is removed or after the fuel is pressurized on the pressure side of the transfer pump. The proof that air bubbles are air and not vapor is that they appear when there is very little negative pressure involved. They also do not disappear after being pressurized by a lift pump, unless of course the pressure is high enough to compress them beyond the point of visibility (about 50 microns or less).

By David Hodgkins (40 years in diesel fuel system engineering) The Phenomena of Air Separation in Diesel Fuel


Think about this, That experiment was done on a stationary fuel tank or in this case drum, yet entrained air still reared it's ugly head.


I didn't see this one either from FASS who quotes other companies in this business and does a great job of explaining the theory. I'm actually going to change my fuel filters as soon as possible after reading this.

https://fassride.com/wp-content/uplo...-FC-Guide-.pdf


From this document:

Cummins Service Topic 5-135 does an excellent job identifying this. “The source of the vapor is the fuel itself. Much like water, fuel contains a certain amount of dissolved air, depending upon the fuel temperature, pressure on the fuel, specific gravity and the amount of aeration to which the fuel has been subjected.”

“Specific gravity” meaning the degree of vacuum applied to the fuel.


Caterpillar Special Instruction 651-1250 states: “Normally No. 2 Diesel Fuel contains about 10% airs in solution, although the air is not visible.”


*Positive Flow vs. Vacuum: The boiling point of liquid, in our case diesel fuel, is directly related to the “specific gravity” (vacuum) in which it is subjected to. As fuel is subjected to any kind of vacuum, vapor will be produced. As fuel is subjected to various degrees of “Specific Gravity” (vacuum), vapors will be produced in various amounts. Engine performance is deteriorated as a result. An example of this, and routinely overlooked, is a dirty fuel filter, which increases vacuum, thus, increasing the vapor being produced. Real Life Example: Your engine performs best with clean fuel filters. They restrict little by little, while engine performance deteriorates little by little. Remember the measurements of engine performance we previously talked about! Once the filter reaches a point of restriction, to where the engine’s maintenance guide indicates changing or when you will no longer tolerate the lack of performance, you’ll change the filter, gaining back the lost performance. Up until this point, performance is constantly deteriorating with each mile. You now have a clean fuel filter, your performance is back and your engine is running more efficiently. What if you had the positive flow of fuel like that of the engine in the manufacturers test cell? You gained pressure when reducing vacuum from a restricted dirty filter to a restricted clean filter. Yes! Even with a clean filter, flow is restricted. Wouldn’t you gain again when totally removing all restriction?

*this is what caused me to change my mind about running out my fuel filters even though I am monitoring the fuel pressure PID. There's no gain to changing my filters further out and may actually cause loss of performance.


Did you know that every 90° fuel line fitting is worth about 13 feet of fuel line restriction? This is why, without a FASS, you should be using mandrel bend fittings. A 90° or “T” fitting introduces what is referred to as a “Liquid Eddy Current”. A liquid eddy creates a restriction, while introducing more entrained air & vapor. Speaking of fuel line, when the inside diameter is doubled, the flow is quadrupled. Manufacturers have reduced the amount of air & vapor by simply enlarging the size of fuel line along with fuel filters.

Look at how much bigger the DCFM filter is on the 17+ 6.7s...

Stationary vs. fuel tanks subjected to agitation: Fuel agitation is the major cause of air in fuel. This is one reason why the diesel engine performs better after the truck has been sitting for some time. Have you ever noticed how much smoother, stronger, quieter your engine feels after sitting, compared to other times when in operation for hours upon hours? Studies have shown the amount of entrained air in fuel after 1 ½ hours of traveling is equivalent to the vapor being produced from a filter with 11.5 inches of vacuum/ restriction! Most engine manufacturers “DO NOT” want to experience more than approximately 7 inches of restriction

The manufacturers test cell fuel “supply” tank never experiences the hot aerated fuel as there is a separate collection tank vs. the “supplying” fuel tank receiving the hot aerated fuel.

There are 2 areas of concern related to this 1 condition: 1st – Hot Fuel: As liquid is heated, several phenomena occur. The fuel expands, becoming thinner. Previously, we discovered the boiling point of liquid changes with “specific gravity”. It is the same with the viscosity of liquid. The thinner (less viscose) liquid becomes, the lower the boiling point. The Milwaukee School of Engineering states “The viscosity of an oil is highly dependent upon its temperature. The viscosity of an oil drops dramatically as its temperature increases.” Oils viscosity is cut in half for every 20° in increased temperature.” In short, this compounds the issue with a restricted filter, making it easier to increase the amount of vapor being created. It may be hard to grasp the boiling of liquid at ambient temperatures or even that of fuel temperatures nearing engine temperature. Here are some examples to clarify this condition: Watch an air bubble escape from a scuba-divers tank. As that pressure decreases, while rising to the surface, the bubble increases in size due to the lack of pressure. Now compare this to the “Specific Pressure” of space. In space your blood will boil without the application of pressure.

Hopefully, we now have a better understanding of where and what conditions contribute to the varying degrees, regarding the amount of air &vapor in fuel. Did you know there is a popular term for this condition? “Fuel Starvation” The term fuel starvation is heavily used in the diesel market when it comes to the performance of a diesel engine. Most people think of it as an absence of fuel, giving it no more thought. The truth is, the absence of fuel means the introduction of air &/or vapor!

A specific function of fuel is to provide “Lubrication” and “Fluid Dampening” to the fuel injection system.

Fuel starvation (air & vapor) drastically affect these functions in a negative way. With the evolution of the diesel engine improving from yesterday’s engines to today’s high technological high output engines, these functions are in much greater demand, as you will see. MSOE, Milwaukee School of Engineering, a premier school in hydraulics, estimates “75 to 85 percent of hydraulic system failures are a direct result of fluid contamination.” They also state, “Probably the most destructive fluid contaminant is “Air”.” You may ask yourself why we are comparing hydraulics to fuel injection systems? The 2 are very similar, as they both contain pumps, valves & actuators with other components related to their specific field.

Yesterday’s diesel engines had much lower injection pressures compared to today’s diesel engines. Some of those injection pressures were as low as 2,000psi. You may be saying to yourself this seems pretty high, and it would be if your foot was subjected to this pressure. If this was the case, your foot would be about as thick as a piece of paper. But in the fuel injection world this is now extremely low. Today’s injections pressures reach as high as 30,000psi with some even pushing 40,000psi! This is an increase of at least 15X’s the injection pressure of today’s vs. yesterday’s injection system.

This is what I am after right here:

Solid fuel, free of debris, water and fuel starvation (air & vapor) will increase fuel lubricity throughout your entire fuel system.

“Fuel Starvation”, air & vapor, steals lubricating properties of fuel to the injection system.

Fuel creates a barrier between the metal surfaces, like oil creates a barrier between the connecting rods and the crank shaft. Whenever there is a lack of lubrication, i.e. air & vapor, galling and scoring will occur from metal to metal contact.

“Fuel Starvation”, air & vapor, steals the “Fluid Dampening” of fuel from the injector tip. As the injector plunger (Referred to as the check by Caterpillar) compresses the fuel, the fuel dampens the impact between the plunger tip and housing. Caterpillar states, “Fluid trapped between the tip and the check at the end of the injection acts as a shock absorber, minimizing check impact.” Caterpillar then states, “An air bubble in the tip provides no fluid dampening, allowing the check to impact the tip with up to 50% greater force. Over time this dramatically increased load may cause a fatigue crack to form in the tip, which can eventually lead to tip failure”.


Sorry for the long post. I just want to address the pertinent stuff. I want to try to extend the life of my fuel system components. The best way to do this is to remove all the air from the fuel so the fuel is in the best form to maintain the lubricating properties it needs to keep the HPFP and injectors performing at their best. When they are performing at their best, their life will be extended. I also feel that it's important to shine the fuel before I would install a tuner, specifically the Derringer, because making more power without first addressing the air in fuel issue would create a more negative effect with the added power. JMHO. But from this FASS document:

Many improvements added to a diesel engine are installed in hopes of greater performance. However, before you improve upon anything, you must first address what is inadequate. If you wanted to make a building larger, you would have to improve or enhance the foundation. On diesel engines it comes down to air flow and fuel supply. Many truck owners will buy what is called the “trifecta”. This consists of air intake, exhaust, and a tuner. The user would immediately experience an enhanced feel in the vehicle. However if we were to truly make a great foundation for reliable horsepower we would address what is inadequate first in the hopes that all the other modifications work as designed.

In addressing the injector life, FASS also mentions it further in their document. Check it out:

In the old days of engines previously mentioned, it was not uncommon for those injectors to last over a million miles. It was not uncommon for the early model Dodge 5.9 Cummins injectors to last over half a million miles. Compared to injectors today it is not uncommon for a Duramax to go through 3 set of injectors before reaching 100,000 miles or for a Dodge or Ford to do the same. So again, ask yourself, at “What Cost”? FASS customers might not be getting the same increases in fuel mileage as “Yesterdays” engines but they are saving more due to the fact that fuel prices have more than doubled over the years. Then add on top of fuel savings, FASS customers are saving in “Injection Components” maintenance and avoiding costly break downs. While fuel pressures have been increasing, so has the amount of aeration and vapors (fuel starvation) being introduced into the injection system, thus offsetting the benefits of the higher fuel pressures. This is covered earlier in the series regarding the hot fuel, increased flow rates, increased vapor and aeration.

So once again, I am not endorsing the use of a system like this nor am I endorsing any company here. I throw this stuff out for FYI and to back up my views. In similar threads here, I've had guys comment, "well if Ford thought this was necessary, they would have them from the factory." My response was and still is, they are not necessary to run your truck. Why would the OEM want a product on their truck that would among other things, make the fuel system last longer and possibly make consumers not look at their "latest and greatest?" On that thread where the owner has his 6.7 Powerstroke HPFP go out, all the comments here like, "buy the 20 year bumper to bumper next time," "you are not the consumer Ford is looking for," and "what did you expect with over 100k miles?" I'm paraphrasing here but you get my point here. I AM NOT THE CONSUMER FORD IS LOOKING AT OR TRYING TO ATTRACT. I DON"T WANT A NEW TRUCK EVERY 5 OR 6 YEARS LET ALONE SOONER. I want to maintain my truck to go well over 100k miles and over 6 years (the length of my loan).

Also once again, my decision to run a air fuel separation system may not make sense to a person who will trade their truck or sell it after the warranty is up to buy new again. What I do and what anyone else does is probably very different. Your lack of acceptance or difference of POV is what makes this world go round and round. Is my POV superior? Not at all. I do what I want and works for me. YMMV...

 

It's all good, Bone...

 

I tend to agree. BUT, LOL, I personally know a guy that spent $15,000 for the fix for a truck that wasn't paid off. I can not afford that. I will do the prevent stuff

 

ditto

when I bought my used 6.4 with 84k miles I changed all filters and all fluids. I did find small metal particles in the filter....but since the pump psi was normal...I took the position that the truck had a past pump failure and the metal particles were residual from that.

all it takes is one spec of metal from a failed pump to lock the injector open and you will tourch a hole in your piston.

 

2016 F250 Crew cab short bed 4x4 Platinum,
Seeking advice on what to do as far Disaster prevention. I've had a miserable couple days trying to search and read - the computer has been super slow when it was moving at all.

I have the Exergy Metering valve to install. I also want to install a disaster prevention kit. I see there are a few different kits - actually I saw that posted and wasn't able to find out if there were any differences.

Are there any disaster prevention kits that do NOT require grinding?

Have they been out long enough to determine one as better than others? Or, Have they been out long enough to determine any that aren't worth the money?

Lift pump, water trap and better filters - FASS, AFE or Caterpillar?

EGR delete?

Other good upgrades, even if not related to the fuel system - that should be considered?

A good place close to Kankakee, Illinois for installation?

Any approximate prices on installation?

I see Wehrli is in Dekalb, Illinois Haven't called them yet to see if they do installations or just sell.

Is there anything supported by dealerships?

I know a guy that had his deletes done on his 2012 at a dealership. I asked the same dealership about the Disaster prevention kits and they claimed to know nothing about them or any issue ever with a CP4.

Thanks

It took me all day to get this posted. LOL I saw several other threads, that I did not get to read. I had 4 threads open once, but this is the only thread that loaded.

 

I have not seen one person post in these forums that has said "that disaster prevention kit I installed saved me a **** ton of money when my CP4 grenaded". How much money does the disaster prevention kit save in the event of a CP4 failure? From what I have read it's quite the labor intensive task to get it installed. Take the cost of the DPK and the labor to install it and deduct that from the cost of a fuel contamination repair and what are the savings?

I do know when the CP4 fails it requires a complete fuel system repair kit which has a price tag of just over $3200 the rest is labor. Also keep in mind that by the time a CP4 fails all the injectors have quite a bit of wear and tear on them. Wouldn't it be beneficial to replace the entire fuel system in the event of a CP4 failure to prolong the repairs necessary to an aging fuel system?

 

Where did you come up with the $3200 figure? It cost a friend close to $16,000. I have heard several $10,000 and up.

I got a quote earlier of 2 hours shop time - so, I am guessing $200 to install. He said he has done quite a few. What's the cost of the Disaster prevention Kit? $400?

I'll take that gamble. Part of the disaster prevention is to hopefully extend the life of the IP.

It's like running synthetic oil. You'll never really know if it did anything for you or not, But I've been running synthetic since the 1990's

 

https://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...MzWi05QjI0Ni1C

That is a discounted price, most dealers will charge more.

The disaster prevention kit does nothing to extend the life of the HPFP. It only protects the injectors and rails and whatever components that receive fuel after the HPFP. Only way to extend the life of the pump is to be sure it's well lubricated with some type of fuel additive.