God is real, omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent and eternal and just.

Jesus Christ was the manifestation of God here on Earth. His promise was to the Jewish people to accept him. Not to the entire world and not to those outside of that age.

After Jesus, the Holy Spirit was sent to live in every person who accepts God's directives for man.

The Bible is a word of God, and is true. Much of it is no longer applicable to the modern world. None of the stuff about Jesus is applicable.

Most Christians worship the man-made Bible. The Bible is not God and they confuse the two.

I do not believe that Jesus offers me any salvation, whether I accept Jesus or not. I believe salvation comes from living one's faith. Like Jesus, even though imperfectly.

I believe God allowed our current problems in order to give us a chance to live our faith.

I believe the Second Coming of Jesus has already happened. And Jesus is most certainly not coming back to fix anything, he left that to those who follow God.

I believe the end of the world as described in the Bible, happened too. I believe those who are just waiting for the end and for the "Second Coming" are basically wasting their lives and being unfaithful to God, not fulfilling their mission here.

I believe that faith must necessarily have a price. Without a price, it is a token. If it doesn't cost them anything, it is meaningless. God loves sacrifice. He does not want to be cheap or free. He wants to cost more than all other stuff we have.

I believe that almost all mainstream Christianity is token and essentially is of "false prophets" as talked about in the Bible. They are assimilated by the world, and not any kind of meaningful force in the world, addressing its problems. They will spend $100 on earthly needs and throw 2c to God, "accept Jesus" and live meaningless token lives with zero positive impact on the world - which was their mission.

I believe that God doesn't exist here to do anything for you. Rather the purpose of one's live is to exist for God. I believe God owes me nothing - not money, not time, not power, nothing at all, while I owe God everything, and that it is insane to judge God on the basis of what you have or who you are.

I believe that the man is utterly powerless in this world. Bad things happen whether you interfere or not. All good creation comes from God with the man playing a very minor role.

I believe that faith rests on reason. God is perfect reason.

I believe that God is a higher power and unable to be understood by us anymore than your dog can learn to program a computer.

 

Hey man,

As eloquent as you are, I hate to say this, but your post is a contradiction in itself. Nay, your whole belief system is a contradition in itself.

Whistler

 

Yes, and on top of that, I pity you, for you believe that nothing you do in this world is under your control or affects your life or that of others around you.

I could not live that way, and I would hope that others couldn't as well.

Waxy

 

waxy...I'm reading your post with interest as I remember this quote from you the other day in the What we believe thread:

[ I]Originally written by Waxy[/I]
I'm with sinjin, I think it's absurd to try and separate or elevate man above the level of the natural world.

Our actions and lives are every bit as controlled by the environment as that of a mouse, we just like to "think" that we have control over our environment. We are completely intertwined in the web of life, just like any other creature.

Waxy

so now I'm interested to know which it is?

 

faith by definition is irrational.

"God is perfect reason" makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Fisher, nevermind, I'll let Waxy defend himself.

 

Fisher, you should be a journalist. You've already mastered the skill of taking a quote out of context.

That being said, I'll reply.

That statement was made in regards to man's impact and "evolution" in the natural world, and our proposed separation or elevation to a status as being above or exempt from the laws of nature. That we are not. On a geological, millenial, or even hourly time scale, the actions of man, as a whole, are at the mercy of nature. We can do the best we know how, but in the end, the natural world will always win. We can't control meteors, earthquakes, floods, climate change, etc... We can build dams, drive more fuel efficient cars, etc..., but all things change, nothing lasts forever.

Every action we take, good or bad, has an impact on the natural world around us. The difference is, I believe that we can make conscious decisions regarding these impacts and the path our lives will take, they are not predetermined, or beyond our control.

I am free to make choices every minute of my life that will affect how I live and how I interact with my world, the possibilities that stem from those decisions are infinite.

I DO NOT believe in fatalism.

Waxy

 

ok...just wanted to make sure that I was getting everything correctly... SO...we do have an impact on the world around us, we can change what's happening around us but ultimately there is something "higher" in the universe than us? is that what your saying?

 

fisher,

OBJECTION: leading the witness!

 

fisher,

I don't take kindly to your attempts to either put words in my mouth or misrepresent my statements.

Waxy

 

hey...it was his statement (that was changed from the original during my response - I might add). I'm just trying to find out what his stance is. As he points out to others from time to time when they are contradicting themselves...I just wanted to make sure that he wasn't. I don't see it as leading the witness as much as re-stating what he said.

waxy: thanks for the journalist comment...although I'm sure you didn't mean it as a good thing

 

waxy...I've read many of your post both regarding Christianity, evolution and much more. We have had several good discussion on numerous topics. I don't believe I have stated or mis-stated anything more than what you have said. I am just trying to find out where you stand...you don't believe in organized religion and are pretty outspoken against those who are, you believe in evolution, and you seem to have a firm graps on what it is you believe. I'm just trying to find out where it all fits together.

the way I see it
we make an impact but are still at the mercy of nature

is basically the same as

we make an impact but are at the mercy of something higher...
no where did I state GOD, or the golden monkey, or the almighty dollar or anything else...I simply left it at HIGHER.


either you agree with it or you don't...according to your statement that you made, YOU DO.

 

carpe_diem,

I suspect you have the basis for a whole new sect of Christianity. Just what the world needed.

Or is this doctrine already codified?

Your take on things if original seems to have involved a lot of thought and I respect your quest for truth. Honestly.

 

That's where you left it, but there's no doubt where you were going with it.

I believe in the laws of nature, with a bit of Newton's 3rd law mixed in.

Our actions, which we are free to make, have consequences that we cannot forsee.

In the history of the Earth, we are just a speck, as inconsequential in the end as the fossils in the Burgess Shale. The environment will change and our time will pass, all things end, I don't attribute it to a "higher" power, just the law of the natural world. My problem here is with the your term "higher". I don't place the natural world and it's change aka "evolution" as being higher than mankind. We are intricately interwoven.

If you want to bring this little foray full circle, then you can go back to your original quote and see that my stance on this hasn't changed. I place mankind at the level of everything else in the natural world, equally susceptible to change.

Where confusion seems to enter the picture for you is that I separate mankind, on a history of Earth/geological/evolutionary time scale, from the single generation time scale of my life. Within the time frame of my life, I am free to make whatever choices I want, and they will have a resulting impact on the world. Fortunately, I won't have to worry about most of the consequences, I'll be dead.

Waxy

 

and now who's putting words in who's mouth?


If we are at the mercy of nature (as you say we are) then how can nature not be "higher" than man? If we do our best only to see what nature does with it, are we not at its control?

 

i guess I'm gonna have to wait longer to respond to your post because each of the last have said something, I've responded and by the time my response gets there you have edited it. Kinda makes it hard to carry on the discussion and me get the full jist of what your saying before responding.