sinjin....I'm sorry as well....I came off as harsh and short and didn't intend too...I'm sure after wading thru the pig pen you hear the same stuff again and again.... this is one reason I try to stay out of most of the discussions in here! thanks again.
fisher

 

Fisher,

I saw a program on History channel (I think) yesterday in which several academics and Bible scholars have presented the idea that one of the 4 authors, Matthew I believe, was the only independent account. The books of the other 3 authors were written later, and were based on Matthew's account. In effect Mark, Luke and John used a cheat sheet. Therefore explaining the lack of variation.

This interpretation is apparently well documented and supported, and has received fairly wide spread acceptance among Bible scholars.

That's about the extent of my knowledge on it, but I thought it was very interesting.

Waxy

 

Waxy,

I think I read the same thing in a book entitled
"The Case For Christ". I'm sure some others here are familiar with it. Interesting read but logically fallacious as usual.

 

I'm not sure that I have heard that before.... besides that, there are several things that would make me question that. there are several instances where the number of people being discussed are different in the gospels. ie: the story of the possessed man - one account ( Matthew 8:28) talks about there being 2 demon possessed man. Mark doesn't even make account of it, Luke 8:26 talks of it being one man (probably because he was the main one-- the one that talked so that is all that Luke paid attention to) and gives much more detail into what goes on, and John doesn't speak of it. there are many more instances throughout the Gospels where one writer may share more detail than another or leaves the story out all together. I don't think it could be done as you state.

I would like to invite you to read a book called Skeptics Answered by D James Kennedy. Is the Bible reliable and accurate? Can we prove that God exists? Who was Jesus? How can there be evil if God is good? These are some of the most-asked questions at the heart of this faith-affirming look at Christianity. Clear, factual, and well-reasoned, Kennedy's answers will provide you with solid assurance for every doubt. 240 pages, hardcover from Multnomah.

this book has some of the answers to the very questions you and others on this site pose. I'm not saying it will prove anything or change anything for you, but I think if you read it with an open mind there will be room for some new thoughts to surface.

 

sinjin... there are many books out there that attempt to answer questions regarding "hard to answer questions". another popular one is "Evidence that demands a verdict" this was written by Josh McDowell. A very well know youth communicator. He started off as an athiest and kept getting upset with people trying to tell him that there was a God and that the Bible was true. He set out with the whole intention of proving them wrong. He decided he was going to read the Bible backwards and forwards and try to find inconsistancies in it. try to find where it might contradict itself.....and what happened? He found it to be true. He discovered what it said and that it affected him... so much so that not only did he decide that there was a God.... not only to the point that he "converted"....but to the point where he dedicated his life to preaching and teaching others about this God. I don't know how...if you read it with an open mind and seek understanding of it that it cannot affect you. Then again...that's just what happens to me.

 

this is the book description on The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict. He has updated his original work:

When Josh McDowell was a pre-law student, he was challenged by a group of Christians to investigate the claims of Jesus from a purely intellectual standpoint. At the time, he felt supremely confident Christianity would fail such an examination, so he set out to prove that Christianity was a sham. Along the way, he discovered something else; he discovered Jesus.

The Evidence that Demands a Verdict may have started out as an attempt to prove Christianity intellectually false. What is has now become is something completely different. McDowell uncovered in his research the incredible resiliency of the Christian faith, and the strength of its intellectual claims. Thus, when he came to setting out his findings, he ended up creating one of the best Christian apologetic references available. And now he has made that reference work even better, revising it and updating it for the 21st century.

The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict maintans and strengthens McDowell's original arguments for the validity of Christianity. Jam-packed with information, this book looks at why the Bible can be trusted, including its historical reliability and accuracy. McDowell explains who Jesus is, and why the New Testament record of his personality and ministry is the best and most authentic source available. He also explains how several worldviews have attempted to discredit Christianity, particularly through the methods of biblical, form, and textual criticism. McDowell also examines several philosophical systems, including skepticism, agnosticism, and mysticism, and offers a cogent defense of the idea and reality of miracles.

Few apologetics books can claim the intellectual breadth that The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict has. It's extensive bibliography and documentation give it a firm foundation that enables it to weather even the strongest criticism. It has been a classic apologetic reference since its first publication, and it is now even better.

 

Trying to express belief… Is belief based on fact like you know 2+2 = 4? Or is it based on experience where if I stick my hand in the fire it will hurt? I do not believe that the Bible is the direct Word of God – it has been translated/deciphered by humans and misinterpreted too many times – but that it is the door that will lead me to His Word. Thence from there, one day, to Him where I will be in His presence. If it was not for the Bible I would not have a chance. No one can point at a page, a chapter or a verse and say, “See, there it is!” I tried that and it didn’t work. I saw (in my uneducated mind) errors and misleading notions that for years led me away from the Truth. But a few years ago, after closing my eyes and opening my mind, and having a craving for truth, I then saw. But I can’t prove that. I can’t show you that the truth is there even if it is so obvious to me. Why after all these years have I not been able to pull out something concrete to show my family – those who need me so desperately? Because, I believe, that salvation, at best, is a one man job. And that ultimately my wife and children will have to face the fact that I can’t save them. It is my duty to lead them, gently, towards that goal, but not my responsibility to force them to believe in God or have faith in Him. My family totally relies on me for their support – every day. Who can I rely on? My self? No. On my government? Not hardly. On my preacher? Not his role to take care of me. Who then? From my own experiences (and experiments of life) I have found that I can only rely on Christ.
I am not comparing myself to carpe-diem and I apologize if what I say offends anyone, especially carpe. But I have been where he is and so has Christ Jesus. And He had just as hard a time in trying to figure out these religious fools as we have. Take what Waxy stated about the movie “Black Robe”. I haven’t seen the movie or read the book, but those individuals actually forced people to believe the way they do. Was that Christ-like? Of course not. But it was definitely the rage of the age. I have seen and heard preachers throw the words of the Bible at people and share not one word of God with them. Why? It is the way they learned it and the only way they see it. They don’t try to line-up the Word of God with the scriptures, they just read and interpret. The Jesuits (in the order of the Black Robes) did more damage than good to those they were trying to “save”. And even though Edgar Allen Poe’s “The Pit and the Pendulum” was totally fiction it depicted the horror of the Spanish Inquisition. What good did the Spanish do in the name of Christ?
Is the Bible accurate? Yes, if you line-up the scriptures. But to do this you have to read, not with your eyes, but with your spirit and your soul. God is Spirit and must be worshiped in spirit. Reading the Bible for what it is: Life’s guide; will lead you to the Word of God. Those in my life that have seen the change in me can only say, “Man, you have really found the secret of life, haven’t you?” My answer is always, “I have found peace, joy and comfort knowing that there is a Most High God, who died for me and in turn I must believe it was for a reason.” Seeking the truth is with me all the time, constantly tapping me on the shoulder and gesturing towards something. Did you know that the word “problem” is not in the Bible. Do you know why? I think I have narrowed it down to this: Problems are what this life is all about. A problem can be anything from a headache to losing your family or your life. But all problems are there (here) to thrust us forward, to take us further in our journey for Truth. The Bible is a problem. It is here to take us forward, onward to that next level. Whether I believe in evolution or not; whether I believe in Christ or not; whether I have a belief system or not – one day I will placed in a position to find out. That is what I believe.

 

well put big orn.

 

I was going to respond to Kenn, but Fisher already did...sorry!

 

No, in that, our future, as individuals and as a society, is what we make of it. Our choices today, which we are free to make, determine what happens tomorrow.

No, they don't. It is an important point. The man controls his choices. He does *not* control the outcome. He has little, if any control of the outcome.

I will give a specific example. I vote 3rd party. This is who I want to see elected. I have the choice to vote for them, or for someone else. Now no matter who I vote for, (my choice 100%), the outcome of the actual election is determined by other forces and I have 0 control over it. The same thing with the rest of man's life. You walk through life controlled and shaped by forces you neither control nor understand.

Therefore, all you have are choices. Live a choice-based life. Not an outcome-based life. There are too many factors which shape outcomes and your participation is not a significant force which shapes the outcome. These comments are based on fact, not an opionion.

 

carpe_diem,

I coudn't disagree more, and I would dispute your claim to fact.

You chose an example where we have voluntarily given up our individual rights to control the outcome to the majority. It's a wonderful system we call democracy.

Man has the ability to reason and predict the probable outcomes of his choices.

Choose to rob a bank, you'll likely go to jail, choose not to rob a bank, you won't go to jail.

Choose to go to university and get an education, or don't.

Choose to get married or don't.

Choose to have children or don't.

All of these choices that one faces during their life will determine the direction the rest of your life takes, aka the outcome.

It's chicken and the egg, a matter of semantics. Did the choice lead to the outcome? Or was the outcome inevitable?

For my money, the choices lead to the outcome, you can change the outcome by changing the choice. Think of it as a probabilty equation, choice A will lead to outcomes C or D, choice B will lead to outcomes E or F. We can't choose between C and D or E and F, but we can choose between A and B.

If the choice doesn't effect the outcome, why bother making the choice?

Every choice you make today will affect what happens to you tommorrow, that is undeniable IMHO. Are we able to predict or control exactly what the outcome will be? Of course not, but we are free to choose the path that we travel.

Life is a lottery of infinite possibility.

Waxy

 

I couldn't agree more...took the words from my mouth.

 

So, how do decide what is applicable today and what is not? What if you're wrong. That could mean an eternity in hell. I belive everything in the Bible by the way and I believe Jesus will come back very soon. I'm looking forward to that day.

 

What if you are wrong. What if Jesus is not coming back? Have you considered that possibility?

God of course can do anything God wants. He can indeed send Jesus for the 3rd or any number of times. But, that's very doubtful. What's certain is that this world will keep sliding into abyss while token Christians neglect their responsibilities, waiting and waiting, preaching and preaching. Oblivion is the only certainty in that eventuality. The people who are most responsible for fixing what's wrong and making this world right are sleep-walking through life, anesthesizing their existence with comfortable but meaningless formulas.

That's the problem I have with modern Christianity. It lost its roots, it is of no use to me whatsoever.

 

I coudn't disagree more, and I would dispute your claim to fact.

You chose an example where we have voluntarily given up our individual rights to control the outcome to the majority. It's a wonderful system we call democracy.

I don't understand the above statement, which is a theoretical tangent. In my example above about voting, I explained how things are from _my_ perspective, or from the individual perspective. I simply don't have the power to shape the world to be what I think it needs to be. Nor does any other individual, no matter how powerful. Change happens through an array of forces, seen and unseen. An individual will always be pretty powerless in light of these forces.


Man has the ability to reason and predict the probable outcomes of his choices.

Yes, probable is the word I would use too. "Probable" is very distant from "certain". There is no certainty in any outcome, at all.

.......

Choose to get married or don't.

Choose to have children or don't.

I am not sure I communicate what I mean here well. You have the choice to get married. That may - or may not mean you will have children. If you choose to have children, that does not mean they will survive to adulthood. Your goal is for them to mature into adults, and you have some impact upon that process or any other process, but you fail to consider factors beyond your control. Whcih are most factors and your impact is relatively minute on anything.

Remember the 2000 election circus? I don't really care one way or another but one candidate got more votes but the other won the popular vote. In the end, the court decided for them. You did not control their decision. Which was made for you.


All of these choices that one faces during their life will determine the direction the rest of your life takes, aka the outcome.

I am not saying that the individual choice is meaningless. I am saying just the opposite. It's all we have. All we can do is choose A, or B, or Z. Does not mean it will lead to 1, 2, or 28.

Think of it as shooting billiard. You hit the ball. That's your choice, your capability. Once pool que is no longer touching the ball, the ***** rolls in the direction and may, or may not go where you want it to go. It may impact other rolling ***** and all you can do is stand by and helplessly watch. But, ou set the ball in motion - and that was all you could do.


It's chicken and the egg, a matter of semantics. Did the choice lead to the outcome? Or was the outcome inevitable?

I think the crux of the matter is that the man or the individual, is rather powerless in this world. He controls neither his age, nor skin color, nor the political process, nor the weather, nor how his children behave, and a thousand and one other things.

It makes sense. If God is real, then God has to be omnipotent. A man who can control his destiny could not in fact coexist with God. They cannot be both in control.

Given that it is self-evident that the man has total control of choices but little or no control in outcome, there are 2 possibilities:

1) God exists and is that missing link in man's life which controls things _you_ don't control.

2) God does not exist. What you don't control is controlled by pure chance, coincidence, luck, whatever myriad of cosmic forces there is.

I think both are possible but I am inclined to think (1) is true.



For my money, the choices lead to the outcome, you can change the outcome by changing the choice.

Well, you can get a *different* outcome, that's true. But there are no guarantees in anything. There is no certainty you will make it through the day tomorrow - you may fall down coming down the steps, break you neck, et cetera. Same is true for _everyone_. Statistically, I should live for another 40 years. Yet statistics are about averages. What about deviations on both sides of the graph?


Think of it as a probabilty equation, choice A will lead to outcomes C or D, choice B will lead to outcomes E or F. We can't choose between C and D or E and F, but we can choose between A and B.

I agree with that. I think you have _some_ input into outcomes. But largely, you stand there and watch



If the choice doesn't effect the outcome, why bother making the choice?

Of course choice affects outcome. You just don't know which outcome.



Every choice you make today will affect what happens to you tommorrow, that is undeniable IMHO. Are we able to predict or control exactly what the outcome will be? Of course not, but we are free to choose the path that we travel.

Life is a lottery of infinite possibility.


It very much is just that, real question is, who assigns the winning numbers?!