Okay, many of you know I am in the "injector woes" category at the moment, so let's see if we can't make this a helpful thread while I troubleshoot and ask for help.

Quick background:

1. Last summer an injector puked, most likely internal orings. Like a bad paint sprayer out the tailpipe while on a thousand mile home trip. She was "thirsty" but brought us all home with camper in tow. Good girl

2. I sent my injectors to a popular rebuilder and had them rebuilt and converted from 140cc split-shot OEM to 160/80 single shots. Replaced a minor cup issue in #2 while at it. Installed reman injectors and she wouldn't start. Tracked down a stuck injector, most likely some remnants in heads from the previous failure. Confirmed as rebuilder fixed injector under warranty and went through it (not sure if anything else, but seems unlikely). She starts and idles roughly.

3. She idles like a missing cylinder but purrs once rpms are up a little. REALLY touchy throttle. I've tried several different basic (single shot) tunes from well known tuners. Pretty sure we've ruled out tunes.

Where I am now:

1. 200 or so miles MAX (likely in the 150ish) over past year. Both valve covers off, CAC tubes disconnected for access. Idling still rough. All injectors spitting some oil, not sure if correct amount or same amount as others, can't really tell.

2. I have 2 or 3 injectors that tick loudly. No noticeable change after re-torquing all injectors, though I did get some with a fair amount of tightening needed.

3. I tried disconnecting one injector plug at a time to see which one didn't make a difference in sound of engine to find a dead injector. Can't find one. Could be me, could be a partial injector firing?


Conditions:

1. AIH deleted (going to add resistor to run Cylinder Contribution Test)
2. New OEM IPR and pigtail, new ICP, swapped CPS, new HPOP lines and fittings, new SPX turbo wheel, new cup in #2, new UVCH just in case.
3. All topside oil leaks fixed. Extremely minor weeps if anything.
4. Might have failing/weak wastegate actuator. Don't think it is relevant, but if it is closed while idle, any relation?


Questions:

1. Are the ticking injectors a fault? They are noticeable and loud. When I unplug one that is ticking, the ticking goes away and is prominent when reconnecting while running

2. Unplugging some injectors sounds smoother, but aren't I looking for one that makes no difference? Maybe certain PAIRS of injectors off is a smoother idle- if one is bad and I unplug its compliment, engine is smoother???

3. Since they all spit oil, buzz test and ohm test have any value?

4. How much oil should be coming out of injector spouts? Should it be identical in all injectors?

5. If testing with temp gun, how much difference would indicate a problem cylinder, and how long to I have from startup to "not helpful" because manifold heats up??? IOW, how long do I have to check the cylinder manifold temps?

6. If I had more bad cups (not tested yet), would that cause rough idle as I describe?

7. Anything special I can look for while VCs are off? Something I can see with valves or something?

8. Warm enough for exhaust flapper to stay open. Recently rebuilt the valve for it in the pedestal (last year), so no leaks and I did confirm at one time that it was open. I don't hear the odd jet sound at the tailpipe.

9. With all the oil that went through the system, is it possible something is fouled? No CAT on it, else I would suspect a clogged CAT.

Anything else???

Thanks in advance.

 

Does the CCT offer any advice? If it's a specific injector(s), I would hope this returns some insight into which one.
I've torn apart one injector to see how they work - I actually have all the tools and parts to disassemble and rebuild these things, a long term project sitting on the back burner of the old stove parked behind the woodshed. While there are many moving parts internally, the only part located above the body of the cylinder head and the largest moving piece (and thus most likely to be heard, IMO) is the poppet valve and plate operated by the solenoid. So a ticking there could be indicative of inadequate clearance for poppet valve travel, which could impact HPO control of the fuel part of the injector and make it deliver improper fuel. Just tossing ideas here.. I'm not really sure what rebuilders look at when doing this.

 

I am thinking of pulling the solenoid on the noisy and easiest to access injector (#2 front driver). I am comfortable doing that but not exactly sure what to look for? Remember, I do computer and some electronics work, so small and complex parts are okay for me- just not sure what to do with it after, LOL.

Too bad you live on the "wrong side" of the state, or we might have some BBQ and pull a couple apart... LOL

Maybe if you or someone can offer some guidance about pulling a solenoid, I can start there- maybe multiple issues?

BTW, the first stuck injector had a piece of small debris in it, according to the rebuilder, and I was able to confirm it wasn't spitting oil and was basically locked up when I removed the solenoid (before sending it back).

 

When you remove the four solenoid screws, you'll be able to lift off the Solenoid and Solenoid Spacer, and you'll be looking at the Armature. The Armature is screwed to the top of the Poppet Valve via a single screw in the center (misnamed the Adjusting Screw, all circled in yellow). I believe the OEM spec is 0.002-0.004" clearance between the Armature and the Adapter. When the injector is open, the Poppet Valve / Armature lifts up and upward travel is limited internally by the poppet Sleeve, Shim and Adapter (red circles). As things wear in the injector, poppet valve travel increases and two things can happen, the armature bottoms on the adapter or tops out on the solenoid. So you should check the clearance and look for wear marks on the solenoid.

The Short answer ends now.
There are fixes for these problems. If the poppet wears, it can be replaced but I haven't found any specs for the poppet, so other than comparison, I don't know how to determine wear. If the poppet valve seat internal to the Piston & Valve Body wears, it's not replaceable, and this will allow the armature plate to contact the Adapter; for this there are shim washers available that go on the Adjusting Screw to raise the Armature. If the armature is hitting the solenoid, there are shims to raise the solenoid - but this isn't the correct way to fix it, just a simpler way to do so without removing the injector. The Poppet Shim is available in increasing +0.001" thicknesses to compensate for this wear, but the wear is either the Sleeve or the Poppet Valve, and I believe both are still available.

 

And here's the doc I got that pic from, previously posted here elsewhere but my Google-fu is off today. And the fix for the "wrong end of the state" can be resolved by my driving to Walleye's, giving him $200 for the cheeseburgers (not sure if that's each or both these days) and we fly out to your place...

 

Nice diagrams and info, thanks!

I'll have to get on the airfield permission nearby. I am going to send these injectors back for rework this time, but for sure we'll make that "geographical error" resolution a reality.

Once I get this Excursion fixed and caught up on a few things, I can be a good host again Really appreciate the kind offer, we'll make sure it's worth the trip for you guys

 

Well the whole point of going out there would be to fix the Ex!

 

And by Ex I meant the truck, not that I know if anything else might imply just being clear for those NSA types...

 

LOL. Understood. If the injectors aren't the problem, you guys can use VFR using the BONFIRE as guidance. Haha!

 

Miss at idle that smooths out a bit? Sounds identical to a box truck that came through work a couple months back - was an armature plate loose. Turns out the guy at Standard that rebuilt it forgot thread locker. How'd they sound during a buzz test?

Be careful what y'all plan out in the open here, some random ginian may be in the state to work on a locomotive and pop in to help!

 

I haven't run a buzz test this round, but was observing while it was running. Some injectors were louder ticking than others. They all spit oil and all Ohm'd tightly within spec. Pretty sure I exceeded what the buzz test would find, jumping to what would be next, right?

Locomotives? We got them everywhere at the moment. A few were on Carson Street about 3 stories below the tracks, a couple sitting along the tracks in Bedford the past day or two. Even Thomas the Tank Engine ride went off his rails and is parked at the amusement park within the first week or two of opening. It's been a rough month for NS. Got a buddy who works for them and responded to Hyndman last year (or year before, I don't recall). He has been quite busy :O

Any time you want to wander by, just shout!

 

Well, the ohm reading tells you that the solenoids themselves aren't bad. With the buzz test, the
couple loose armature plates I have come across have been accompanied by a softer/off buzz. If it gets a decent amount of slop between the armature plate and the poppet valve, it could be possible for it to make a metallic tick as the plate contacts the poppet screw on the upstroke toward the solenoid.

Dern, I've come to expect tales like that from CSX, NS is normally on top of things! Yessir, I work on all engines, large or small, diesel or steam. One of the conductors with the railroad I'm with hails from the Lewisburg area and has had a hand in some of the restoration projects up there. When we're not too slammed down here and I'm able to get away from the day job, we (and occasionally a few other railroaders) go North to pitch in and get some work done on his old projects and try to keep them running. Kind of ironic - we go all that way to get away from work to work some more!

 

Boy, I sure hope fixing this injector seating takes care of the troubles. The ticking can be the clearances? SaintITC also mentioned how to check them. I may go back afterwards and check them. Maybe, LOL.


That's pretty cool! With our power plants and places like Portage, Horseshoe Curve, Ebensburg train yard, Altoona switching station (complete with roundhouse- right word?) and such, we see lots and lots of trains of all types. Ironically, almost no passenger stuff and it's expensive even to take a trip.

Would be GREAT to have a reasonably priced commuter train to Pittsburgh daily, it would open up huge markets for rural Pennsylvania.

Pretty specialized work you do. Impressive. Shame NS is getting bad luck recently, usually no problems at all and lots of track rebuilding around the past few years.

If anyone is ever in the area, just shout. We're humble, but friendly country folks