"Complete BS", eh? Not just plain BS, but "COMPLETE"? OK. Got it.

Can't help but wonder if there might be a very well paying job waiting for you in Dearborn, helping out the hapless engineers at Ford, who couldn't seem to figure out what you figured out with "no training and little practice". Those probably over-educated engineers, along with all the professional tire techs who have tons of training, and tons of practice day in and day out balancing tire and wheel assemblies, would probably benefit from your technique, which you should charge lots of money for, as it appears unique.

Here is what Ford has to say in TSB 00-21-9 about balancing dually wheels in a motorhome, which you reported having no problem doing:

THE HAWEKA FLANGE PLATE ADAPTER KIT MUST BE USED TO ENSURE PROPER RUNOUT MEASUREMENT AND BALANCE OF THE WHEEL AND TIRE ASSEMBLY. THIS ADAPTER KIT IS CAPABLE OF PROVIDING A MORE ACCURATE AND REPEATABLE RUNOUT AND BALANCE MEASUREMENT THAN A CONVENTIONAL CONE-STYLE ADAPTER DUE TO THE RELATIVELY LARGE SIZE AND WEIGHT OF THIS WHEEL/TIRE ASSEMBLY.

(The bold and all caps is Ford's emphasis, not my own).

BTW, did you dismount your motorhome wheels from the spin balancer after you were done balancing, and then remount the same "balanced" wheel to the balancer to check for balance? Spinning down and spinning up twice doesn't count. The test for repeatablity has to incorporate a complete dismount from the machine.

 

I don't use these. I've never had an issue with my personal vehicles, But, if you have some time and are board, here is a back story from the 80's ......

Back in the day, I had a Fire Truck that would Shimmy when it hit a bump occasionally at about 35 MPH. Because it was an Emergency Vehicle, we replaced EVERYTHING ie: Tires, Wheels, Front End, sent the Steering Box out. The Operators said it did it only "every once in a while". Well, that's not good enough.

We sent it to a Shop a couple hundred miles away that Specializes in nothing but Heavy Duty Front Ends. They did replace one Leaf Spring. But, it still had some similar characteristics. They put another set of tires on the Front End. Still, the same.

Working with the Manufacturer, they found the problem to be weight distribution as the vehicle was just refurbished with an Aluminum Cab and Body. It originally had a Rolled Steel Cab and Body. So, the weight distribution was non consistent with its original Engineering Design Team in Kenosha, WI. All this was on a 12k front end.

They suggested to upgrade the system to a 14k. But, engineering said that would eliminate the problem. But, they had been using a similar system to this with good results.

They used a Similar system (I don't believe these were available in the 80's), which cured all the issues. And, it drove like a Cadillac. Before we put it back into service, we had it independently checked by another Vendor and a State Representative (required).

A few years later we had a Fleet of Ford Chassis F-450 Ambulances with Diesels (our First Diesel Platforms). One of them required front Tires every 10k miles or less! We were sure it had to be Driver attributed: i.e. Curbs, too fast in corners, etc. I mean these tire were destroyed. Tread, Chunks, etc. We even changed brand tires thinking the manufacturer was junk.

We sent it to a local Ford Dealer several times. Other's were getting 15 - 20k on a set of front tire (which, is actually pretty respectable for these platforms at the time). We even sent it every 5k for Front End Alignments as Ford Suggested. Bottom Line, Ford never could figure the issue out. There wasn't a lot we could do because these were Chassis Units sent to another Vendor for Body installs. Although, they did put a lot of time, effort, and materials in to trying solving the problem.

The Shop Foreman decided to send it to the same vendor who did the Fire Truck a few years back - They used a smaller system of what they used on the Fire Truck. We started getting similar wear and life as the other units. Perhaps, maybe even more so. And, no more driving complaints by the operators.

Apparently, the engineering for these systems is very basic. But, sometimes simplicity is the answer.

That fire truck had them (or something similar) until it was dead lined 15 years later. I left before the Ambulance was dead lined due to age. But, both these units were like night/day before/after these type units were installed.

It was "my understanding", these systems were for Dump Trucks which often get Mud caked inside wheels and rims for a long while.

 

So, in the end...

If the tires ARE balanced when installing the Centramatic rings, leave them balanced and install the rings.

If the tires ARE NOT balanced when installing the Centramatic rings, leave them unbalanced and install the rings.

Is this what everyone else is gathering as well?

Also, does anyone know of a company that makes something similar to Centramatic rings, but for import vehicles like Subaru and VW? We have 4 vehicles, I would be willing to install these onto 3 of them. The 4th one is a 2002 Mercury Sable with 254,000 miles that was hit by a deer and hasn't been washed in 7 years... It will not die...

 

Leaving the weights on is a matter of if you want to go to the effort of removing them. The Centramatics won't care one way or the other. They also won't care if you sling a weight off at some point in the future, they will balance the wheel before you would even notice.

 

Taken directly from the Centramatic site under FAQ.

1. Should the tires/wheels be pre-balanced?

In most cases, pre-balancing is not required. However, if a vibration still exits after installation, a computer balance of the problem position can indicate a mis-mounted or defective tire, a bent wheel or other "out of round" condition, which balancing alone cannot correct. Wheel bearings should also be checked and defective parts replaced.

2. Should the rear duals and trailers be balanced?

Absolutely, the largest investment in tire dollars are on the rear. Typically, even when loaded, duals carry less weight per tire and are prone to pounding. This causes excessive heat build-up and excessive, erratic tire wear. Centramatics help cool the duals and one pair of balancers handles four tires, wheels, hubs, and drums. Rear drums are a major cause of imbalance on dual assemblies.

All that said, I plan to call tomorrow when I remember and see what they offer in the way of Subaru and VW fitment. I may end up getting a set for the truck, VW, Subaru and 5th wheel trailer if things go well. If they don't offer rings for the imports, I will ask about their closest competitor, since they don't offer a product, it should not upset them too much if I go with their competitor for the import vehicles.

 

Sorry, my eyes went blurry from reading. What is the price of these for a dually?

 

It won't upset Centramatic at all.

It's YOU who might get upset, if you gamble with Mr. Gamble, who does not honor his so called "lifetime warranty", does not engineer his products to clear obstructions like brake rotors, does not adequately test fitments to applications he advertises will fit, does not stand behind his products, does not respond to customers, and who sells a a product that is a safety risk on a number of different levels.

Just imagine a balancing disc directly attached to a brake hub and rotor. Brakes get hot. Dull cherry red hot in some cases. Heat expands metal. Heat is also conducted through metal. The balancing disk attached to the brake rotor will get hot too. And it will expand. If it is already scraping against the brake caliper bracket when mounted cold, what will happen when both the caliper bracket and the balancing disc expand from heat? Whatever interference fit and scrape by clearance that existed when cold will be obliterated in operational temperatures, and the collision of these expanded hot metals will, at 650 revolutions per mile, cause the lesser metal to wear away.

Between the cast iron caliper bracket vs the aluminum tube holding the balancing media, the aluminum tube will be what wears away first. So not only do you lose the balancing media, you expose yourself, and your kids, and the environment, to mercury poisoning, because that is what is in the competitor's ring. So once you finally get the competitors balancing ring that they state are for your application, after they first ship you the wrong application for a different brand vehicle altogether and you have to fight to get that corrected... anyway, once you get the "right" application shipped to you, and you find that even the "correct" ones collide with the caliper brackets, and you send the competitor company photos and VIDEOS of the brand new, fresh out of the box balancers colliding with the caliper brackets, and they refuse to do anything about it, despite their "lifetime guarantee", and you finally reach the owner of the company, Mr Gamble, who says he will do nothing and hangs up on you, and you realize you just wasted a lot of time and $300 for four frisbees.... it is YOU who will be upset, not Centramatic.

There is a reason why Centramatic is the name trucker's and fleet operators think of when it comes to on wheel continuous dynamic balancing, And that reason is character. The owner of the competitor has none. You'd be taking a gamble. Not one that I won. Had someone warned me ahead of time about the character of the owner of that company in California, I'd have never taken the risk.

And I don't see why you would need to. The tires and wheels of a Subaru and a Volkswagen are so small in diameter, so narrow in offset, and so light in weight, that bothering with balancing disks on those tiny wheels is a bit OCD, and any measurable benefit over traditional tried and true automotive tire balance methods might be elusive, if even existent.

It is when one is dealing with 5.5" of positive and negative offset in a tire and wheel assembly approaching 100 lbs each where the Centramatic balancing discs (or balancing media in the tires) becomes of demonstrable benefit.

The following photos demonstrate why you DON'T want the "Competitor's" dynamic wheel balancing product. Unbelievably, the company's owner refused to refund this poorly designed set of balancers, after they had not one, but TWO chances to send the right model product for the application, and what is shown below is the second product that they insisted and confirmed was the so called "correct fit" for this application, despite them having the benefit of seeing these very same photos, supplemented by videos of the rotor revolving and the paint scraping off the balancer wheel when simply turned one revolution by hand.


Above: Bottom of caliper bracket contacting tubular ring of mercury media.



Above: Top of caliper bracket contacting flat disc of balancer



Above: Witness mark of paint scraped off on tubular ring holding mercury media after one hand operated revolution of the balancer bolted to the hub rotor


Additional angles and images of this ill fitment of the "competitors" balancers:















My application in this case was a 3/4 ton GMC.






In conclusion, I would highly recommend sticking with CENTRAMATIC balancers.

The Centramatics fit my Ford without colliding with the brake caliper bracket.

Centramatic did not offer a solution for my GMC, and as such did not advertise that they had a solution, unlike the competitor advertised, stating my year of 3/4 ton GMC specifically.

When one of the Centramatics leaked, Centramatic was immediately responsive, pleasant, and prompt about sending a replacement.

When I found it difficult to access the inner valve stem on a dually application and called Centramatic about the issue, Centramatic suggested and approved a solution that I could do onsite, and stated that they would adjust future production to address the concern. If I recall correctly, Jerry at Centramatic may have even offered for me to wait until a future production run for the clocking of the hand holes to get adjusted, but I would have declined the offer because the fix was easy enough to accomplish at home. At the beginning of this thread, I noticed that the oblong access hand holes in Colorado350's rear Centramatic are clocked differently and asymmetrically than the rear balancing discs that I received from Centramatic a decade ago, where the oblong holes were symmetrically opposed. While the applications are different, I can't help but wonder if the asymmetry in the newer balancing discs is another manifestation of Centramatic's positive responsiveness to customer feedback.

Centramatic's positive responsiveness is quite the opposite of the negative and hostile attitude exhibited by the owner of the competitor balancer company. The employees of the competitive company were cordial and polite and sympathetic, believing a refund was due, but the owner behaved no different than a street thug mugging you for your wallet in a dark alley, wanting (and keeping) your money... for nothing in return.

 

OCD it would be, and that is not out of my wheelhouse.

I thought that since the tires would not need to balanced over the life of the vehicle the balancing discs would pay for themselves in time and money on the vehicles we use the most. It is a pain in the *** to remove wheels and tires from a vehicle and take them to a shop to have them balanced because I don't trust the shop not to screw things up. I have contemplated purchasing my own balancing equipment in the past, but I just don't have the storage for it.

If someone made a disc that was as reliable and as good a quality for the VW and Subaru, I would be a customer, OCD or not.

 

That's a big IF. I went back to supplement my post above yours, adding a few photographs and more comments during the time subsequent to your posting this response, so that you can scroll back up and see for yourself how a balancer SHOULDN'T fit. The clearances around the brake calipers within the orb of smaller passenger car wheels is even more constricted, so your quest will likely remain unmet by a suitable product, nevermind a quality product.

I understand how you feel about not having a shop "screw things up". I was sort of forced into finding a self balancing solution for my 19.5" tires, as the store that sold the Michelin tires that I prefer, at over $120.00 LESS per tire than any local competitor for the same tire, is Costco (by special order). And Costco, as a matter of policy, does not mount 19.5" truck tires. So I dismount the old tires off of the wheels, and mount the new tires on the wheels myself at home, using a couple of tire irons, a large piece of carpet, a hunk of brass, and the hitch on the back of my truck. Since I don't have a balancing machine at home, the Centramatics have proved to be quite the handy dandy solution. My tires all wear dead flat across the tread evenly, and will have aged out long before they wear out. And I never rotate tires on a dually, because I want to maintain matching diameters within each dually pair.

So clearly, the Centramatics were money well spent for the 19.5" DRW application. But the $300+ I spent on the competitor's product for a 16" SRW GMC application was a regrettable waste of both time and money, with a lot of aggravating frustration inbetween. Definitely not worth the trouble making the discovery of non fitment, especially with a company that doesn't honor their guarantee. Wont' make that mistake again.

 

Google and facebook are great I looked up and found someone whom I worked with when this was going on. Had a two hour conversation. Jared is doing well.

He said he remembers the issues with the units I mentioned above. Said they were "Fluid Disks" that were installed and not Ball Bearing as these.

At the time, in the early 80's, he seems to think they were filled with Hydraulic Oil. Said they had a Rubber Stopper which allowed changing the fluid and adjusting the Weight of the Fluid for specific environments.

He also said, at the time they had been around for as long as he could remember. Said many people at the time also put fluid in the Wheels (Tires) as well to correct balance.

Interesting.

 

Directed to Sous for his other vehicles.

I know it is not the popular opinion but I have my dad's old bubble balancer in the garage. I used it last fall mounting a pair of front tires on the wife's van and a set of snows on a car of my grandma's that I drove all winter. Most wheels had 1 small weight and a couple had none. No complaints from the wife and I don't notice any vibration.

 

Hmm. I just got a set of Balance Masters for the rear of my 2017 F450 that are sitting in my garage. I plan to I stall them this weekend. Hopefully I'll have a better experience.

I liked the idea of silent operation compared to the Centramatics. I've also seen a few reports of Centramatics leaking, where I havent seen that with the Balance Masters. (Good thing too; I'd rather not have a mercury leak.)

 

 

When the Centramatics are working, (at speeds above 22-25 MPH) there is no noise, as the ***** are quietly suspended in a viscous fluid medium by centrifugal force.

Below 22 MPH, there isn't enough centrifugal force to counteract the force of gravity, so the ***** fall out of suspension and can be heard rolling on the bottom of the tube at low speeds.

As for the other brand, the photos above speak for themselves. Anything quieter is not worth the risk of poor fitment and the inhalation of poisonous mercury vapors from a heated frictional intrusion of the tube.


To Sous, for your smaller vehicles, consider any deleterious effects that a relatively solid air blocking disk may have on brake cooling. The car engineers may have sized the brakes based on the heat dissipation afforded by the holes in the wheels, holes which balancing discs could potentially block. I remember in the 70's when aftermarket flat discs were being sold at the wax and oil stores to keep mag wheels clean from the brake dust. It didn't take too long for folks to figure out that these discs that were blocking the brake dust from marring their mag wheels, were also blocking the cooling air through the wheel that helped dissipate brake heat.

I considered brake cooling before choosing Centramatics for the truck. Here is why the dually truck was different:

1. The front wheels are mounted to a dually adapter that extends the wheel face mounting plane about 5.5 inches further outboard of the disc rotor hub plate. The Centramatic front balancing disc cupped flange does not extend more than halfway back inboard over the distance that the dually adaptors extend outboard, which affords a lot of air space around the rotor and caliper.

2. The rear wheels are Siamesed, and the Centramatic rear balancing disc mounts in between the two siamesed wheels, rather than over the rear disc rotor.

3. The F-550's rotors are 15" in diameter, and the wheels are 19.5". There is a lot more surface area on the rotor to dissipate heat. In 18 years, I've never changed a single brake pad on this truck. All original brakes, friction pads included, except for the fluid, which I bled and changed preemptively as a matter of routine maintenance. With so much brake capacity that I am not really pushing (I use trailer brakes), there is less concern about me overheating the service brakes, even while the nature of the dually wheel geometry doesn't really permit the balancing disc to exert that much influence over cooling air to the rotor.

However, on a small passenger car, with smaller brake surface area and artfully designed ventilated aluminum wheels that likely are vaned to assist in brake cooling, I would be reticent to put a solid disc in between the ventilated wheel and the rotor that might restrict brake heat dissipation.

 

These things have been around for ages. I put the centramatics on my 02 300k or 400k miles ago. They're still on there. ( didn't fit the 16 so I had to leave them for the son in law to continue to use)

I always had the tires balance first. Figured that would allow more flexibility in case I picked up rocks or something got out of whack. One time I got new tires, the tire guy came and got me and said come look at this. He put a wheel and tire on the balancer and started it. It was visibly shaking. He said the wheel is out of round and I can't balance it. I've broken the bead and spun the tire 4 times trying to make it work. You need a new wheel, there's no way to balance this one. That tire did wear worse than the others, but I never felt any vibration in the cab.

They also make great dust shields and keep the wheels clean.