Hello,
I have a 2004 Navigator with ~165k on it, have had for about a year and a half, and 18,000 miles. Not long after we bought it, it developed a startup clatter, however once warmed up it's quite smooth, but does have an slight tick that sounds more like the fan hitting a zip-tie or something but I can't find any problems on that end.

Based on this article
AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Symptoms of Bad Timing Chain, Ford V8 Engines
The symptom seems like what they describe for a damaged/broken timing chain guide.

From what I read here, it looks like I should be able to pull the oil pan at the next oil change and see if there's plastic debris in the pan which would confirm that.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...-advice-3.html

So my questions are
1) I'm reasonably mechanically savvy and have the factory shop manual, but always very constrained for time. Is getting into replace the guides/chain/tensioners a day job, or an overall nightmare?

2) I see the "timing kits" come with chains and sprockets. Is it likely that these components need to be replaced or would just getting in to do guides and tensioners be the best way to go? I know that chains can stretch over time just not sure on this one. I prefer doing as much as possible while in there, but also prefer saving $$ if things don't need to be done. I also wasn't sure if there's easier access if I don't have to remove the chain, and also assume that not removing the chain/sprockets saves any worry about cam timing and special tools etc.

Thanks!

 

Usually the noise is from the guides rattling from wear, but the plastic can chip away and clog the oil sump in the pan like mine did... see all the plastic stuffed in the screen on the pickup tube.



mind you this job is not difficult but it is in depth and time consuming. there is no room for error in setting the timing as this is an interference engine.

 

Yes, I'd like to replace the guides and tensioners and leave the chains alone, but also don't want to have to do it twice. But I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having a chain failure?

My plan is to remove the front cover and see what I'm dealing with and go from there. I gather there is a way to check that timing is OK by lining up marks, and if everything still lines up the chains are probably OK.

 

Replace all of the cam timing components including the chains. It's not rocket science, it just takes time.

 

But why? What is the advantage to replacing the chains if the current one isn't stretched?

Both time and cost are very significant factors for me, and from what I've read you can replace the guides and tensioners without removing the valve covers, and apparently removing the valve covers is the most difficult part of the job.

I get that there's an economy of scale to doing things "while I'm there", but then where to stop? At 165k miles I'm sure a head rebuild would be nice, and already having the timing chain/sprockets/valve covers off would get me much easier access to heads. While I'm at it, I'd love to do some new Competition Cams, and a variety of other upgrades.

But right now I'm looking for the minimum cost/time investment to prevent a catastrophic failure. Since I know there's others with well over 200k on the original chain and sprockets that have somehow avoided the guide/tensioner failure it seems like the chains are not a "weak link".

 

Chains stretch over time. At 165k the originals are definitely stretched. How long they would go before causing more issues is the question, but since you have the front of the engine open it's one of those items to replace.

I do not want to unnecessarily spend someone's money, but if it were mine I would replace the chains.

Here is a link to a recent thread where the OP did exactly what you are in the process of doing: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...gine-swap.html

The Navi already had a bad engine, but came with a used replacement. Before simply tossing it in they went through the motor.

 

Thanks,
I understand it's a good idea to replace, I'm just trying to balance funds and time vs need. Usually chains have no replacement interval so I was just a little surprised that people replace them "just because".

I'm looking at upgrading to the MMR tensioners and the cost of those tensioners exceeds the cost of the Ford Performance complete timing kit, so my idea was to replace the known faulty components (not that getting 150k+ out of stock components is "bad", just that I know something has failed now) with the best available and leave alone the parts that have not actually failed.

I would like to do a head rebuild down the road, maybe in another year or 2, so that would be another opportunity to replace the chain it seems.

 

You need to take the valve covers off in order to take the front cover off easily. You wont notice if the chains are stretched or not because most likely the marked links are rubbed off. You can do what you want but as everyone here will agree with my professional opinion just slap the chains on while you are there. once you move the tensioner and guides you are gonna have to verify correct timing on re assembly anyway. Also keep in mind to remove and replace the heads in the truck it is almost 24 hour job book time. It only pays 12hrs to R&R the whole motor. That's what i did and just rebuilt it with a .050mm over bore. O one more thing..... don't waste your money on cams for about the 3k for all 4 and the minimal performance gains aren't worth it,

 

OK, yall have convinced me to just do it all at once. I have a 2nd garage where I can park it and just work on it little bit at a time over a few weeks. Trying to figure out what direction to go on parts, I see 3 options.

I'm leaning toward getting the MMR kit which I think is probably the same as the Ford Performance kit but MMR gives you the option to upgrade tensioners, and I'm thinking upgrading the secondary tensioners may be a good idea
Timing Chain and Guide kit for 5.4 4V/DOHC [400107] - $399.99 : Modular Motorsports, Home of the Worlds Fastest Modular Engines
Passenger Side Billet secondary Tensioner 4V DOHC Cobra / GT500 [444036] - $189.99 : Modular Motorsports, Home of the Worlds Fastest Modular Engines


Option 2 is the Ford Performance kit which saves a decent amount of $
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6004-a544

Option 3 is the Cloyes kit that seems pretty popular priced nearly identical to the FPP kit
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=962831&cc=1426148&jsn=460

Stock parts lasted ~160k miles so the FPP/Cloyes kits are almost certainly adequate from a longevity standpoint, but the MMR secondary tensioners claim to improve cam timing accuracy by a significant degree, that would seem to be beneficial. I'd love to go "all in" with the MMR guides etc too, but just can't justify that cost unless someone convinces me otherwise..

Any advice on the choice here? Like saving $ but also like making improvements where I can if it's going to be noticeable in any way.

Next question is what gaskets am I going to need?

What special tools do I need? Presumedly at least something to lock cams down. I have the factory service manual but haven't had a good time to go through it yet.

Finally, it seems evident that removing the oil pan to check it/clean it is a neccessary step. What am I looking at to do that on my 4x4?

Thanks!

 

I highly recommend watching all 4 videos in the link below. Awesome tips and some must have tools in my opinion. Also would recommend Cloyes kit.

https://youtu.be/nQVKnd2r-ww

 

I used a simple set of vise grips to hold the cam when I replaced the phaser on my old 2005 Navi with the 3V 5.4 engine. It's not an apples to apples comparison though. Some good info on the topic of replacing the cam timing components on a 32V 5.4: https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...gine-swap.html

 

Yep, I've reviewed that thread multiple times.

 

I ordered my parts and plan on doing this over a weekend. Friday prior to the weekend I pulled out the airbags & put new coil over springs on my 03nav. I also did the brakes that night. My plan was The next day was to do the timing chain job replacing all timing components. But Friday night on the way home I’m on the highway at my exit oil low pressure light came on I shut the car off immediately. Had no strange noises rattling or knocking so I turned it back on oil pressure was there and I drove off the offramp and one block

The light came on the battery light came on it died and after jumpstart the engine would not turn. Just recently had an oil change I always run synthetic oil level was fine. Now what?