E4OD stalls in reverse/manual 1 when warm
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E4OD stalls in reverse/manual 1 when warm
I have a 1996 E4OD behind a 7.3 Powerstroke diesel engine, roughly 150 K miles on the truck. The only mods are a recently installed TS Performance Chip (roughly 1,000 miles ago) and a Transgo shift kit (the transmission was not pulled to address the pump modifications) was installed several years ago.The truck has been driven very midly, rarely sees over 2,200 RPM (typically only when it downshifts on a hill).The transmission recently started stalling in reverse and manual 1 when warm.Acts like the torque converter is locking up.The transmission works fine in all other positions when warm and fine in all positions when cold.Transmission fluid looks clean, does not smell burnt, and is at proper fill levels.
When cold: Line pressure in P, R, D, and 2 are roughly 60 PSI.Reverse and first jump to roughly 90 PSI with a steady pressure reading.
When warm: Line pressure in P, R, D, and 2 are roughly 58 PSI.Reverse and manual 1 rapidly fluctuates between 85 and 90 continuously if it keeps running, or jumps up quickly to about the same and immediately stalls some of the time.A third occurrence...I get a pulsing reading while pressure is quickly climbing, and pulses between 85 PSI and 90 PSI for a couple of seconds until it stalls.Looking for any thoughts on what the cause might be.
I am tending to think that it is the pump acting up, but want to see if any other possibilities exist.Would a fallen transmission filter cause the pressure to fluctuate like I am seeing when warm?
Thanks for any assistance!
When cold: Line pressure in P, R, D, and 2 are roughly 60 PSI.Reverse and first jump to roughly 90 PSI with a steady pressure reading.
When warm: Line pressure in P, R, D, and 2 are roughly 58 PSI.Reverse and manual 1 rapidly fluctuates between 85 and 90 continuously if it keeps running, or jumps up quickly to about the same and immediately stalls some of the time.A third occurrence...I get a pulsing reading while pressure is quickly climbing, and pulses between 85 PSI and 90 PSI for a couple of seconds until it stalls.Looking for any thoughts on what the cause might be.
I am tending to think that it is the pump acting up, but want to see if any other possibilities exist.Would a fallen transmission filter cause the pressure to fluctuate like I am seeing when warm?
Thanks for any assistance!
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Update- Please Help
I had the codes read on the truck yesterday using a Snap-on MT2500 Scanner, the only code showing was for P0476 Exhaust Pressure Control Valve Performance. I had disconnected the wiring to this unit several years ago due to an oil leak developing. Reconnected the wire and reran the test...this code went away and ended up with the only code being P1111 System Pass.
The transmission achieved normal operating temps while taking it in to the shop and it would stall in R and Manual1 every time, the line pressure would jump up to 70 PSI before stalling in Manual 1, the line pressure would jump to about 80 PSI for Reverse before stalling.
I have over the last several years read advice in numerous other posts from Mark Kovalsky and others that was helpful, and I am hopeful that he or others might be able to offer me any intuition/thoughts/suggestion he might have before I start blindly tearing this apart.
Thank you in advance!
The transmission achieved normal operating temps while taking it in to the shop and it would stall in R and Manual1 every time, the line pressure would jump up to 70 PSI before stalling in Manual 1, the line pressure would jump to about 80 PSI for Reverse before stalling.
I have over the last several years read advice in numerous other posts from Mark Kovalsky and others that was helpful, and I am hopeful that he or others might be able to offer me any intuition/thoughts/suggestion he might have before I start blindly tearing this apart.
Thank you in advance!
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E4OD update- Please help
I had the codes read on the truck yesterday using a Snap-on MT2500 Scanner, the only code showing was for P0476 Exhaust Pressure Control Valve Performance. I had disconnected the wiring to this several years ago due to an oil leak developing. I reconnected the wire and then reran the test...this code went away and ended up with the only code being P1111 System Pass.
The transmission achieved normal operating temps while taking it in and it would thus stall every time it was put in manual 1 or reverse unless the tires spun on the wet ice. The line pressure would jump up to 70 PSI before stalling in Manual 1, the pressure would jump to about 80 PSI for Reverse before stalling.
I have over the last several years read advice and suggestions from Ford Transmission Specialist Mark Kovalsky and others that was helpful in addressing issues with my truck, and I am hopeful that he or others might be able to offer me any intuition/thoughts/suggestions they might have based on my information before I start tearing this apart.Thank you in advance!
The transmission achieved normal operating temps while taking it in and it would thus stall every time it was put in manual 1 or reverse unless the tires spun on the wet ice. The line pressure would jump up to 70 PSI before stalling in Manual 1, the pressure would jump to about 80 PSI for Reverse before stalling.
I have over the last several years read advice and suggestions from Ford Transmission Specialist Mark Kovalsky and others that was helpful in addressing issues with my truck, and I am hopeful that he or others might be able to offer me any intuition/thoughts/suggestions they might have based on my information before I start tearing this apart.Thank you in advance!
Tuned
Joined: Aug 2014
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Until someone comes along, here is something Mark wrote on another thread that may be applicable. I also read where a dislodged filter can cause issues.
"The torque converter needs pressure to hold the lockup clutch in the off position. If the pressure to the converter dips the clutch can drift on. You can't measure the pressure to the converter, there is no way to access that circuit.
Higher line pressures mean higher demand on the pump. When the demand gets to the point where the pump can't keep up it will cut pressure to the converter to protect the clutches in the transmission. So higher line pressure equals more chance for lower torque converter pressures."
"The torque converter needs pressure to hold the lockup clutch in the off position. If the pressure to the converter dips the clutch can drift on. You can't measure the pressure to the converter, there is no way to access that circuit.
Higher line pressures mean higher demand on the pump. When the demand gets to the point where the pump can't keep up it will cut pressure to the converter to protect the clutches in the transmission. So higher line pressure equals more chance for lower torque converter pressures."
Fleet Mechanic
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From: MD
M1 and Rev call for higher pressure than D. Your pressures are in line with where they should be. I'm guessing that the fluctuating when warm has to do with your prob and the average pressure is dipping low enough to apply the TC clutch. Did you check the pressures at stall?
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Thank you Dean and Brian.
I have read enough of Mark’s and others posts to understand the lower line pressure causing the torque converter clutch to lock up, I am hopeful that he or others might be able to point to a specific area that I should consider, such as a bad converter (I doubt this as it works in all other gears), a faulty issue with my pump, or a valve or seal, or ??? I just want to get as much info as possible before tearing into it, and want to exhaust checking all options before starting into it.
Regarding stall pressures, I did do this when the transmission was cold, the stall pressures were normal. I did not do it when hot or warm for fear of tearing something up (especially in reverse or manual 1) with a locked torque converter. I did drive it for roughly 30 miles with a gauge installed in the line pressure port, depending on RPM’s when in drive the line pressure would vary between 75 and 120. When I was backing it up at normal trans operating temperature by giving it fuel to overcome the locked converter, I could see the pressure rising, but I needed to focus more on avoiding other vehicles.
Again, thanks for the assistance!!! Hopefully Mark will chime in with anything else I can do to pinpoint the problem before tearing it down. Or a suggestion on what the problem might be based on the information currently available.
Don
I have read enough of Mark’s and others posts to understand the lower line pressure causing the torque converter clutch to lock up, I am hopeful that he or others might be able to point to a specific area that I should consider, such as a bad converter (I doubt this as it works in all other gears), a faulty issue with my pump, or a valve or seal, or ??? I just want to get as much info as possible before tearing into it, and want to exhaust checking all options before starting into it.
Regarding stall pressures, I did do this when the transmission was cold, the stall pressures were normal. I did not do it when hot or warm for fear of tearing something up (especially in reverse or manual 1) with a locked torque converter. I did drive it for roughly 30 miles with a gauge installed in the line pressure port, depending on RPM’s when in drive the line pressure would vary between 75 and 120. When I was backing it up at normal trans operating temperature by giving it fuel to overcome the locked converter, I could see the pressure rising, but I needed to focus more on avoiding other vehicles.
Again, thanks for the assistance!!! Hopefully Mark will chime in with anything else I can do to pinpoint the problem before tearing it down. Or a suggestion on what the problem might be based on the information currently available.
Don
Frmr Ford Trans Engr
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: SE Florida
You should check the stall warmed up. Once you raise the engine speed there will be enough pressure to keep the converter from locking. As long as you don't hold stall for more than 5 seconds at a time you won't hurt anything.
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Thanks Mark.
I will attempt to check the stall when warm. It will be easy for Drive and manual 2, not sure for R and manual 1.The torque converter locks right away when warm, and when I am giving it fuel to keep it from stalling, the torque converter does not unlock.About the only option I see for checking stall in reverse and manual 1 is to get the rear tires off the ground and let them spin, or to block the front tires and throw some water on the ice beneath the rear tires.Would it be OK to check stall for R and manual 1 with the rear tires off the ground?
Thanks again!
Don
I will attempt to check the stall when warm. It will be easy for Drive and manual 2, not sure for R and manual 1.The torque converter locks right away when warm, and when I am giving it fuel to keep it from stalling, the torque converter does not unlock.About the only option I see for checking stall in reverse and manual 1 is to get the rear tires off the ground and let them spin, or to block the front tires and throw some water on the ice beneath the rear tires.Would it be OK to check stall for R and manual 1 with the rear tires off the ground?
Thanks again!
Don
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Frmr Ford Trans Engr
Joined: Aug 1999
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From: SE Florida
Probably not. The rear brakes alone won't be enough to hold the rear wheels.
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Hi Mark.
I was unable to get the engine speed raised before the torque converter lockup would stall the engine out in R and manual 1. Line pressure appropriately increased for drive and manual 2.
The only way I could keep the truck running the other day was due to the ice and the rear tires slipping when in R and manual 1. The torque converter never unlocked while backing up, or pulling forward in manual 1. I did stall it several times while trying to backup, even though it was on ice and I was giving it fuel.
I am curious regarding what controls the line pressure in the various gears. Assuming it is a valve that is dumping line pressure in drive and manual 2, could this valve also be allowing the loss of pressure in manual 1 and reverse? Thanks in advance!
Don
I was unable to get the engine speed raised before the torque converter lockup would stall the engine out in R and manual 1. Line pressure appropriately increased for drive and manual 2.
The only way I could keep the truck running the other day was due to the ice and the rear tires slipping when in R and manual 1. The torque converter never unlocked while backing up, or pulling forward in manual 1. I did stall it several times while trying to backup, even though it was on ice and I was giving it fuel.
I am curious regarding what controls the line pressure in the various gears. Assuming it is a valve that is dumping line pressure in drive and manual 2, could this valve also be allowing the loss of pressure in manual 1 and reverse? Thanks in advance!
Don
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Thanks Mark!
I assume you are referring to the main regulator valve in the pump that controls what the line pressure is. I am curious how it knows whether to set line pressure depending on whether the transmission is in reverse or in drive. Does it have a feedback circuit from the valve body?
Could you identify where the most likely locations for internal leaks would be and if there is anything to look for/test to try and narrow it down? And is there a way to further troubleshoot where the leak might be before getting inside the transmission? I am not sure what the function of the low/reverse modulator valve is, I thought perhaps this might be a possible cause of my issue.
Is it fair to assume that my symptoms allow you to dismiss a dislodged transmission filter, or should I pull the pan and check for that?
Thanks again!!!
Don
I assume you are referring to the main regulator valve in the pump that controls what the line pressure is. I am curious how it knows whether to set line pressure depending on whether the transmission is in reverse or in drive. Does it have a feedback circuit from the valve body?
Could you identify where the most likely locations for internal leaks would be and if there is anything to look for/test to try and narrow it down? And is there a way to further troubleshoot where the leak might be before getting inside the transmission? I am not sure what the function of the low/reverse modulator valve is, I thought perhaps this might be a possible cause of my issue.
Is it fair to assume that my symptoms allow you to dismiss a dislodged transmission filter, or should I pull the pan and check for that?
Thanks again!!!
Don
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: MD
Don, you might find the this useful: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-E4OD-t...FY3BNe&vxp=mtr
Buy new here: E4OD Transmission Reference Manual Assembly - Helm Incorporated
But out of stock ATM.
Buy new here: E4OD Transmission Reference Manual Assembly - Helm Incorporated
But out of stock ATM.
Frmr Ford Trans Engr
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 24,730
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From: SE Florida
Correct.
I can't remember, it's been too long since I worked on one of these. There were two ways that Ford did this. Some transmissions had feedback from the valve body, and some just used the PCM to command a higher pressure, which results in a higher line pressure.
Could you identify where the most likely locations for internal leaks would be and if there is anything to look for/test to try and narrow it down? And is there a way to further troubleshoot where the leak might be before getting inside the transmission? I am not sure what the function of the low/reverse modulator valve is, I thought perhaps this might be a possible cause of my issue.
The feedbolts under the valve body could be loose and cause this.
To check the feedbolts you need to pull the pan anyway.
Cargo Master
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My E4OD started doing that and all it turned out to be was that the fluid level was too low. The truck somehow had the wrong dipstick. I finally found the right one on E-bay and two quarts later, problem solved. I could not find a diagram anywhere showing the full of fluid level in the pan. How high is it supposed to be? I don't want to have it over full but it works fine now.
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