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but the 7.3 runs through transmissions. Someone was telling me of one they had that ate through a transmission every 75k miles.
That's far from normal and I'd bet that person had a secondary problem causing the transmissions to fail.
The 4R100 is a very stout unit. It's not weak by any stretch for what it was engineered to do, in a stock setup. However, it is mechanical and will break down, especially when people start putting tunes on their rig. That doesn't make them as weak as an egg shell, but it does shorten the lifespan.
I had been under the impression that the v10 sells for quite a bit less, but in the last two days as I've opened up the v10 as an option in my mind...as I look at prices, they aren't much less and some are the same or more than the 6.0.
Because the 6.0 has a rep for taking money to make it solid. Plus, once a person realizes the V10 can pull/haul/tow the same weight as any equally equipped 7.3L or 6.0L PSD Excursion, unless they WANT a diesel, they usually get the V10.
Generally speaking, except for the occasional outlier, it has been my experience the mileage difference between a V10 and a 7.3L when towing the same weight won't be much more than 3 to 6 MPG difference.
The only reason I don't have a V10 right now is because I don't like the power curve of the V10. For me, it makes me feel like it's anemic and needs a power adder. For you, if all you're using it for is a tow beast, I'd opt for the V10 since you're used to a gasser. Only get the PSD if you want one, not because you think it's a better engine or will give you a lot more MPG.
Stewart
Last edited by Stewart_H; Mar 22, 2018 at 02:52 PM.
Generally speaking, except for the occasional outlier, it has been my experience the mileage difference between a V10 and a 7.3L when towing the same weight won't be much more than 3 to 6 MPG difference.
The only reason I don't have a V10 right now is because I don't like the power curve of the V10. For me, it makes me feel like it's anemic and needs a power adder. For you, if all you're using it for is a tow beast, I'd opt for the V10 since you're used to a gasser. Only get the PSD if you want one, not because you think it's a better engine or will give you a lot more MPG.
Stewart
I appreciate the input. I don't know why...it must be something primitive, but owning a diesel seems like a good thing to do, but all this information is very helpful. It kind of seems like there may not be a "right" answer, but that any of the three: v10, 7.3, or 6.0 could be good...if--a big IF--set-up right. I usually like options, but in this case, I almost wish there weren't so many. It makes narrowing things down tougher, especially since I don't have access to them to test drive. I'm trying to see if I can test drive a gasser I saw in my neighborhood and someone posted an old 7.3 for sale, but says they are moving down here from northern Utah and its not here yet. I guess because I am unfamiliar with diesels it isn't computing in my brain that it could be cheaper in the long run to own a gasser. With the difference in fuel economy, my logic says get a diesel because I can see those numbers easy. Never having had to deal with maintenance of a diesel, that difference isn't as obvious to me. I've read a lot and heard people say a lot about how much more it is, but having never done it, it doesn't sink in as much. Its hard for me to think that I can save by getting something that only gets 8 mpg towing and 10 mpg on average just driving around.
Plus, once a person realizes the V10 can pull/haul/tow the same weight as any equally equipped 7.3L or 6.0L PSD Excursion, unless they WANT a diesel, they usually get the V10.
Stewart
They may be rated the same but the V10 doesn't tow nearly as good as a diesel, I used to camp with a guy that had a v10 excursion with 7500-8000 lb travel trailer and it would struggle to maintain 55mph on hills where a 7.3 with a bigger load had no problem maintaining 70.
They may be rated the same but the V10 doesn't tow nearly as good as a diesel, I used to camp with a guy that had a v10 excursion with 7500-8000 lb travel trailer and it would struggle to maintain 55mph on hills where a 7.3 with a bigger load had no problem maintaining 70.
It wasn't setup correctly to tow, most V-10s came with the 3.73 gears, which are just barely adequate for hauling the EX's weight around. To get much better towing performance the 6.8 needs to have some deeper gears, like the optional 4.30s or even deeper than that. I drove and towed stock 7.3s in the Fire Dept and I'm confident that my (slightly modded) 6.8 does a better job pulling a similar size and weight trailer. All my EX does for us is tow the 11,300lb TT all over the East without any issues. Of course a modded PSD of any size will walk me in the hills.
I appreciate the input. I don't know why...it must be something primitive, but owning a diesel seems like a good thing to do, but all this information is very helpful. It kind of seems like there may not be a "right" answer, but that any of the three: v10, 7.3, or 6.0 could be good...if--a big IF--set-up right. I usually like options, but in this case, I almost wish there weren't so many. It makes narrowing things down tougher, especially since I don't have access to them to test drive. I'm trying to see if I can test drive a gasser I saw in my neighborhood and someone posted an old 7.3 for sale, but says they are moving down here from northern Utah and its not here yet. I guess because I am unfamiliar with diesels it isn't computing in my brain that it could be cheaper in the long run to own a gasser. With the difference in fuel economy, my logic says get a diesel because I can see those numbers easy. Never having had to deal with maintenance of a diesel, that difference isn't as obvious to me. I've read a lot and heard people say a lot about how much more it is, but having never done it, it doesn't sink in as much. Its hard for me to think that I can save by getting something that only gets 8 mpg towing and 10 mpg on average just driving around.
An oil change costs me right around $150. That’s two filters and 16 quarts of quality synthetic oil. That’s IF I don’t use archoil in the oil. Add another $40 for that (or so). So, $200 later and an hour of my time, I have fresh oil. Every 5000 miles. You could do a V10 for what, same engine oil filter cost and less than half the oil? $75 at most? V10 guys jump in here....$125 buys a bit of gas, especially when it’s cheaper than diesel. So, in a “normal” year, I probably spend $800 in oil changes alone, whereas a V10 would only be around $200? How far can you drive on $600 worth of gas? And that’s just the beginning.
Don’t take that for anything other than what it’s worth....My vote is still for the diesel
They may be rated the same but the V10 doesn't tow nearly as good as a diesel, I used to camp with a guy that had a v10 excursion with 7500-8000 lb travel trailer and it would struggle to maintain 55mph on hills where a 7.3 with a bigger load had no problem maintaining 70.
I don't want to have this degenerate into another diesel versus gas war thread that gets locked (it's been years since we've had that problem) but I'll say this and let it go. Pound for pound IN STOCK FORM the V10 will out perform a 7.3L pulling any weight trailer (up to legal weight rating limitation), on flat ground or up a hill. This is fact, proven by owners here at FTE, at an annual get-together where they pitted different trucks against each other in real world conditions. Start modifying and yeah, that's no longer the case, but still, the V10 is a very capable tow pig, and is every bit as capable as similarly equipped PSD Excursions, when it comes to pulling a trailer.
Change the format and add modifications to each platform and, depending on what has been done to a specific rig, one will get to the top of the hill faster, but let's be real here, the OP is familiar with gassers, only wants an Excursion for a tow beast, has zero clue how much the diesel will soak him for costs when it comes to regular maintenance (and even worse if something breaks and needs repaired), so I bet he would be tickled pink if he had a rig set up like Tom's (WE3ZS) Excursion.
There are more than a few sensors that can go out, or fuses that can blow on a diesel, that will leave you stranded on the side of the road. And it's not uncommon for that to happen nowadays with the ages our rigs are at. Gassers, not so much a concern.
Anyway, figure out what you want, then research the hell out of it and decide.
I'll say one last thing. One of our very own fellow Excursion brothers has only ever owned gas powered Excursions, but he always WANTED a diesel powered Excursion. It took him years and several "almosts" along the way before he "settled" for the Mighty V10, upgrading from his 5.4L powered Ex. Even after all that, he still Jonesed for a diesel Excursion. Well, once again after many "almosts" (and thousands of links posted by the Ex brotherhood to help him find ANOTHER Excursion), he finally found and bought his hearts desire, a 6.0L PSD Excursion.
I don't think it's run right since he bought it, and I think he's about to cut his losses and sell it.
An oil change for my 7.3 costs about $60 with a Motorcaft filter and 14 quarts of regular 15w40 oil. An oil change doesn't have to be expensive.
+2, as my oil changes cost me about the same. I do around 2 oil changes a year for about $120 total, and then add a fuel filter each year at around $20. It is not expensive to own my 7.3 or do the maintenance. Buy supplies in bulk.
On the other hand, it is VERY EXPENSIVE to break down...No matter what you are driving.
I don't want to have this degenerate into another diesel versus gas war thread that gets locked (it's been years since we've had that problem) but I'll say this and let it go. Pound for pound IN STOCK FORM the V10 will out perform a 7.3L pulling any weight trailer (up to legal weight rating limitation), on flat ground or up a hill. This is fact, proven by owners here at FTE, at an annual get-together where they pitted different trucks against each other in real world conditions. Start modifying and yeah, that's no longer the case, but still, the V10 is a very capable tow pig, and is every bit as capable as similarly equipped PSD Excursions, when it comes to pulling a trailer.
Change the format and add modifications to each platform and, depending on what has been done to a specific rig, one will get to the top of the hill faster, but let's be real here, the OP is familiar with gassers, only wants an Excursion for a tow beast, has zero clue how much the diesel will soak him for costs when it comes to regular maintenance (and even worse if something breaks and needs repaired), so I bet he would be tickled pink if he had a rig set up like Tom's (WE3ZS) Excursion.
There are more than a few sensors that can go out, or fuses that can blow on a diesel, that will leave you stranded on the side of the road. And it's not uncommon for that to happen nowadays with the ages our rigs are at. Gassers, not so much a concern.
Anyway, figure out what you want, then research the hell out of it and decide.
I'll say one last thing. One of our very own fellow Excursion brothers has only ever owned gas powered Excursions, but he always WANTED a diesel powered Excursion. It took him years and several "almosts" along the way before he "settled" for the Mighty V10, upgrading from his 5.4L powered Ex. Even after all that, he still Jonesed for a diesel Excursion. Well, once again after many "almosts" (and thousands of links posted by the Ex brotherhood to help him find ANOTHER Excursion), he finally found and bought his hearts desire, a 6.0L PSD Excursion.
I don't think it's run right since he bought it, and I think he's about to cut his losses and sell it.
Stewart
I'm curious what this excursion you reference is and why I'd be "tickled pink?" Sounds intriguing. I must say...you guys have all been awesome. Thank you so much for your input. I was able to drive my neighbor's v10 last night. I believe he said it is a 2000. had just over 212k miles. It ran fine, but some things seemed a little "loose." Don't know if that's the age, just how they all are because they are more truck than SUV, or if there are just some things that need some attention. I put some gas in it for him to show my thanks for letting me take it out for a drive. Based on current prices: 2.63 for 85 (yep, we have 85 octane in some places here) and 2.93 for diesel I calculated that if I averaged 10 mpg with a v10 and 14 mpg with a diesel the difference between mileage is just under .06 per mile. In 10000 miles, I calculated that the diesel (just driving) would be about $500 cheaper. That would be much different if my estimated fuel economy is off. I get the diesel is more to own--don't know how much more, but I understand that is something to consider. My brain just hurts thinking I am committing myself to 10 mpg on average if I go v10, but I'm trying to look at the bigger picture (overall ownership costs). I started wondering if I should find ways to mod my expedition and just keep that since most of my driving is around town, but I just don't think there are enough ways to help it be more capable. You can't even put air bags in the back because of how they have the rear suspension.
You've all given me lots to consider and I really appreciate it. I am not sure there is anything that still needs to be mentioned that you haven't already said, but I continue to welcome your knowledge. I enjoy learning and gaining experience from those who've already walked the path...or maybe "driven the path" is more suiting here
I have an 04 Navigator that I pulled my 24' 6-8k lb trailer with. It did the job with its factory 4 corner airbag system and the added trunnion weight distribution hitch. The 5.4 does very well w/o the trailer and only OK with the trailer. I was getting about 8-8.5mpg with the trailer, 16.5-17.5 w/o. My worry was how long, or far the Navigator was going to hold up pulling the trailer, so last December I picked up an 04 Excursion V10 rwd for $10.5k. I got the V10 as I was very happy and familiar with the 5.4. I have not towed the trailer any distance yet to get a true towing MPG but did get 16.4 w/o the trailer. With the 40 gallon tank that puts me a just over 600 miles on a tank of gas not towing. The V10 6.8 is not as quick as the 5.4 (I have the 3.73 gear), but it does have pull/torque.
I loved my Navi, but I feel better towing with the EX. I have no experience with diesel but know they require more maintenance. I could be wrong, but I feel when traveling, if there is a motor related issue, I would have an easier time getting repairs/parts with the V10. Add to that the cost of maintenance and repair while on the road.
Just my personal experiences and observations. I was not going to reply but thought I'd toss my $.02 in when you mentioned keeping your Expy and doing upgrades to it. The Expy/Navi is not the same thing as the F250/EX setup, but I did have to upgrade my rear springs on the EX even with the Reese trunnion weight distribution hitch.
I'm curious what this excursion you reference is and why I'd be "tickled pink?" Sounds intriguing. I must say...you guys have all been awesome. Thank you so much for your input. I was able to drive my neighbor's v10 last night. I believe he said it is a 2000. had just over 212k miles. It ran fine, but some things seemed a little "loose." Don't know if that's the age, just how they all are because they are more truck than SUV, or if there are just some things that need some attention. I put some gas in it for him to show my thanks for letting me take it out for a drive. Based on current prices: 2.63 for 85 (yep, we have 85 octane in some places here) and 2.93 for diesel I calculated that if I averaged 10 mpg with a v10 and 14 mpg with a diesel the difference between mileage is just under .06 per mile. In 10000 miles, I calculated that the diesel (just driving) would be about $500 cheaper. That would be much different if my estimated fuel economy is off. I get the diesel is more to own--don't know how much more, but I understand that is something to consider. My brain just hurts thinking I am committing myself to 10 mpg on average if I go v10, but I'm trying to look at the bigger picture (overall ownership costs). I started wondering if I should find ways to mod my expedition and just keep that since most of my driving is around town, but I just don't think there are enough ways to help it be more capable. You can't even put air bags in the back because of how they have the rear suspension.
You've all given me lots to consider and I really appreciate it. I am not sure there is anything that still needs to be mentioned that you haven't already said, but I continue to welcome your knowledge. I enjoy learning and gaining experience from those who've already walked the path...or maybe "driven the path" is more suiting here
Stewart was talking about my '05 V-10 EX, which I have modded to be a better tow rig. Locally my EX sees maybe 2/3 trips to Home Depot a year and a day doing Boy Scout flower sale delivery and maybe 5 or 6 other short local errands. Otherwise it sits parked in my driveway awaiting the next vacation trip towing the big TT and then some driving around solo at our destinations sightseeing and taking in the local activities, but the bulk of it's miles are done with a heavy TT hanging on the hitch. My mods include 4.88 gears (single biggest performance enhancer without a doubt!), modded X/B springs (4" front 5" rear lift), 35" Nitto Dura tires, Rancho RS9000XL adjustable shocks, Hellwig rear sway bar, Banks long tube headers and Y pipe, Aeroturbine 3030XL muffler, SCT tuner loaded with custom tunes from 5Star Tuning, Torklift 20K SuperHitch and a Hensley Arrow sway elimination WD hitch. Our TT is a '14 Jayco Eagle Premier 338RETS with 3 slides that is 41' from hitch to rear bumper, 12' tall and scales at 11,300+ lbs with 1840 lbs of tongue weight, it's a big heavy trailer with it's own set of mods. Our EX handles the TT very well as we tow it about 5/6K miles a year all over the Eastern states. It can hold OD and 60+ MPH on all but the steeper Interstate grades and will easily accelerate if it does drop down a gear on the hills. In over 36K towing miles with it (15K with the old 9,500lb TH and over 21K miles with the Jayco) I have NEVER ONCE gone to wide open throttle, even back when still all stock with 3.73s. It would obviously loose some speed back then on the hills and it always downshifted, sometimes twice on bigger grades but would still hold above 45 MPH on even Fancy Gap (I-81 in VA, one of the East's biggest challenges). Now with it's mods and bigger TT it will hold over 60+ on that same grade at only 64% throttle opening with the 89 Octane Perormance tune loaded. If I keep the speed to between 60&65 MPH it gets 8 to 9 MPG on a typical long Interstate trip, with a best trip of 420 miles at 9.5 MPG. If I run faster at 65 to 73 MPH the mileage drops to 7.5/8 MPG, we just got back from a 1600 mile round trip to KY and got that mileage at those speeds even in freezing temps.
Over my nearly 8 years of ownership it has proven to be a very capable and reliable vehicle with the only breakdown being a failed fuel pump at 96K, it doesn't ask for much in the way of regular maintenance, fluid changes and lube seem to keep it pretty happy. Is it perfect, no, but for me I think it's the best imperfect choice for us based on how we use it. Would a similarly modded PSD EX deliver the same long term performance (or better) for our use, probably yes, but I made my choice based on my knowledge and comfort level of turning wrenches on gas engines and not feeling that I had the time to invest in learning all I felt that I needed to know about either PSD to feel as comfortable as we drove all across the Eastern states. The 6.0 fear factor also entered into my choice back then, more is now known about helping to make them live longer and healthier lives and I really wanted as new of an EX as possible and that kind of pushed the great, but older 7.3 down the list. One other factor that influenced my choice was that I hate the smell of diesel, you see I make it for my living as a Refinery Operator and after 30 years of smelling it every working day I really didn't want to be smelling it on our vacations!
Personally, I don't really think the big EX, as much as I love them, is the best choice for a daily driver, at least for me. I bought mine in '10 with the intention of keeping it around until about '25 or so when we hope to retire, so I didn't want to run the miles up on it and all of the other associated daily use and abuse and potential damage (I drive into Philly for work), so it was destined to be a "second" car for me. It also proved to be just about exactly as economical at my daily driving 50/50 mix of town/ highway at 14-ish MPG as my old '96 Chevy 5.7 K1500, I'm pretty cheap and wanted to do a little better than that for all of my "empty" commuter and errand miles. In the Winter I drive an '01 Suzuki Vitara 4X4 (our EX is the Jolly Green Giant and the Zuk is the Little Green Sprout) and in the warmer months I drive (now on my second one) a '94 Geo Metro XFi (GEOrgia Peach), I paid 3 grand for the Zuk and $650 for the exceptionally clean 44k mile Metro, with their much better mileage (Zuk @ 25 MPG and Metro @ 55/60 MPG) they have paid for themselves in gas savings based on the 14 MPG comparison. And they are both actually a lot of fun to drive. I look at it like a tool set, I'm not using my torque wrench to loosen bolts, I have wrenches, ratchets and sockets for that common work, the torque wrench rests until needed to ensure correct assembly of critical components, the EX is my torque wrench and my little cars are my wrenches and sockets.
I have an 04 Navigator that I pulled my 24' 6-8k lb trailer with. It did the job with its factory 4 corner airbag system and the added trunnion weight distribution hitch. The 5.4 does very well w/o the trailer and only OK with the trailer. I was getting about 8-8.5mpg with the trailer, 16.5-17.5 w/o. My worry was how long, or far the Navigator was going to hold up pulling the trailer, so last December I picked up an 04 Excursion V10 rwd for $10.5k. I got the V10 as I was very happy and familiar with the 5.4. I have not towed the trailer any distance yet to get a true towing MPG but did get 16.4 w/o the trailer. With the 40 gallon tank that puts me a just over 600 miles on a tank of gas not towing. The V10 6.8 is not as quick as the 5.4 (I have the 3.73 gear), but it does have pull/torque.
I loved my Navi, but I feel better towing with the EX. I have no experience with diesel but know they require more maintenance. I could be wrong, but I feel when traveling, if there is a motor related issue, I would have an easier time getting repairs/parts with the V10. Add to that the cost of maintenance and repair while on the road.
Just my personal experiences and observations. I was not going to reply but thought I'd toss my $.02 in when you mentioned keeping your Expy and doing upgrades to it. The Expy/Navi is not the same thing as the F250/EX setup, but I did have to upgrade my rear springs on the EX even with the Reese trunnion weight distribution hitch.
Thank you for chiming in. I think its good to read your thoughts. I do think it would be better to upgrade to an excursion rather than try to make the expedition something it isnt. It would need to be a 4x4, so I know that impacts fuel economy. Living in a state where it snows, I just feel that as far as "being prepared goes" we should have at least one vehicle that we can all fit in that has 4x4. Have I needed it over the years...very rarely, but I like the peace of mind.
I've gotten some really good insight. One member was gracious enough to give me a specific list of things to look for if I go the 7.3 route. If I go the v10 route, what do I need to watch out for? Seems like getting one with 4.30 gearing is important. I gotta still figure out how to know if that is what it has. I don't know how common those were, but sounds like that is important. What else should I pay attention to?
I've gotten some really good insight. One member was gracious enough to give me a specific list of things to look for if I go the 7.3 route. If I go the v10 route, what do I need to watch out for? Seems like getting one with 4.30 gearing is important. I gotta still figure out how to know if that is what it has. I don't know how common those were, but sounds like that is important. What else should I pay attention to?
Thanks.
It sounds like your TT is around 7,500 lbs on the GVWR, so even an EX that has the V-10 and 3.73 will get you to wherever you are going, bust with more revs, slower and with more gas burned than the same wagon with 4.30s. You can always upgrade the gears later too, 4.30 came in lots of pickups and the axles will swap right over which is typically cheaper than having a shop perform a regear at $1800-2400 for both axles.
When you look at EXs you want to check out the drivers door jamb sticker (on the door), on the bottom row under "Axle" it will have a code, either 31 (3.73 non-LS), C1 (3.73 LS) or C3 (4.30LS). LS meaning Limited Slip (posi), all the 4.30 rears in EX were LS and all PSD EXs came with 3.73, some LS some not.
All modular motors (5.4 and 6.8 in the EX) are prone to suffer from broken exhaust manifold studs. On a V-10 there are ten on each exhaust manifold, five above the log and five under, be sure to inspect all 20 to see if any are missing. Use any missing studs as a bargaining chip to reduce the sales price, a shop will typically charge $400/800 for a complete stud replacement job but we can help guide you through the process to DIY it for the cost of a new set of studs, $30 or so. I did mine when I installed my Banks headers.
Mod motors also can have a spark plug retention issue. This is on the pre-'03 production engines, the original design only had 4 threads in the heads for the plugs to thread into, over time this has lead to many having a plug blow out of the heads for a variety of reason. Again, we can walk you through the process of properly changing spark plugs and torquing them down to greatly reduce the likely hood of plug out a plug. If one should blow, it's not the end of the world and the repair actually makes the fix much better. In '03+ models the number of plug threads was increased and the instance of plug blowouts is almost unheard of, so a newer EX has one less thing to be concerned about.
Other than those two items, the V-10 is otherwise a very solid platform with no other "weak links".
I would strongly recommend to use a code reader on any used vehicle you look at, and always check the check engine light be turning the key to Run, shady sellers have been known to remove the bulb there to hide standing codes.
Rust is a deal breaker for me, I will not buy a car with any serious rust, it always costs more than estimated to repair and repairs can exceed the value of the car sometimes.
Brakes, these big wagons can suffer from a variety of brake issues so pay very close attention to how they feel and perform on a good long test drive. Use any pulsing or noises to bring the sale price down. We can walk you through a complete brake job here.
Front suspension, give all the components a good shake test while you are under the truck, feel for any clicking, clunking or excessive play. And pay attention to how it feels on the drive, does it wander or need constant correction or pull to either side? These issues can help bring the price down and you can fix them with guidance from the group here.
Pound for pound IN STOCK FORM the V10 will out perform a 7.3L pulling any weight trailer (up to legal weight rating limitation), on flat ground or up a hill.
No argument there. Not to mention that they stopped installing the 7.3L in US trucks around October-ish in 2002 so all the original blocks are over 15 years old. I love my 7.3L but I bought mine when it was only 4 years old. It had better be one sweet deal for me to take on something now that is old enough to be sophomore in high school!
Originally Posted by Stewart_H
Change the format and add modifications to each platform and, depending on what has been done to a specific rig, one will get to the top of the hill faster, but let's be real here, the OP is familiar with gassers, only wants an Excursion for a tow beast, has zero clue how much the diesel will soak him for costs when it comes to regular maintenance (and even worse if something breaks and needs repaired), so I bet he would be tickled pink if he had a rig set up like Tom's (WE3ZS) Excursion.
Stewart
Stewart is not kidding about maintenance and repair costs for a diesel. Nothing you are considering is new so plan on both of those costs for anything you get. Even if the truck's value depreciates the parts cost don't. The part that was $200 in 2004 is still $200 today...if Ford still makes/sources it. There are plenty of vendors out there still supplying replacement/custom parts for these trucks for a reason but as the saying goes, "you've got to pay to play". I am not trying to put you off of anything, just do your research (as Stewart_H said). Gassers are much cheaper to maintain and diesels (usually) get better gas mileage. There are plenty of other pros and cons you can weigh but you have to make the decision for youself and what fits your needs and wants.