Starter engagement issues
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 7,182
Likes: 1,174
What is this "sarcasm" of which you speak?
All seriousness aside, you seemed to have some improvement with the shim. Maybe you need to play around with the thickness to fine tune it.
What is your target gap between the end of the starter's drive gear (when retracted) and the engine side of the flywheel ring gear? If unsure of your measurements and math, you could take a direct measurement the same way we check the pressure stops when rigging an aircraft door.
Clean the starter drive gear with some degreaser, and then put a blob of putty on the end, wide enough to cover the gear teeth, and thick enough to fill the expected gap. The degreaser is to make sure the putty sticks to the starter gear. For the putty, you can use Play-Doh, glazier's putty, plumber's sink putty, or anything similar that won't harden right away.
On the flywheel ring gear, put a think coat of oil so the putty won't stick there. Remember, you want the putty to stick to the starter gear, but not the ring gear. Put the starter firmly in place to mash down the putty. You don't need to bolt down the starter, but do make sure it's fully seated for an accurate measurement.
Remove the starter and you should see an imprint of the ring gear. Press the end of a thin steel rule into this compacted area until it hits the end of the starter gear. Record the depth of the compacted putty, and that is your clearance between the two gears.
All seriousness aside, you seemed to have some improvement with the shim. Maybe you need to play around with the thickness to fine tune it.
What is your target gap between the end of the starter's drive gear (when retracted) and the engine side of the flywheel ring gear? If unsure of your measurements and math, you could take a direct measurement the same way we check the pressure stops when rigging an aircraft door.
Clean the starter drive gear with some degreaser, and then put a blob of putty on the end, wide enough to cover the gear teeth, and thick enough to fill the expected gap. The degreaser is to make sure the putty sticks to the starter gear. For the putty, you can use Play-Doh, glazier's putty, plumber's sink putty, or anything similar that won't harden right away.
On the flywheel ring gear, put a think coat of oil so the putty won't stick there. Remember, you want the putty to stick to the starter gear, but not the ring gear. Put the starter firmly in place to mash down the putty. You don't need to bolt down the starter, but do make sure it's fully seated for an accurate measurement.
Remove the starter and you should see an imprint of the ring gear. Press the end of a thin steel rule into this compacted area until it hits the end of the starter gear. Record the depth of the compacted putty, and that is your clearance between the two gears.
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
What is this "sarcasm" of which you speak?
All seriousness aside, you seemed to have some improvement with the shim. Maybe you need to play around with the thickness to fine tune it.
What is your target gap between the end of the starter's drive gear (when retracted) and the engine side of the flywheel ring gear? If unsure of your measurements and math, you could take a direct measurement the same way we check the pressure stops when rigging an aircraft door.
Clean the starter drive gear with some degreaser, and then put a blob of putty on the end, wide enough to cover the gear teeth, and thick enough to fill the expected gap. The degreaser is to make sure the putty sticks to the starter gear. For the putty, you can use Play-Doh, glazier's putty, plumber's sink putty, or anything similar that won't harden right away.
On the flywheel ring gear, put a think coat of oil so the putty won't stick there. Remember, you want the putty to stick to the starter gear, but not the ring gear. Put the starter firmly in place to mash down the putty. You don't need to bolt down the starter, but do make sure it's fully seated for an accurate measurement.
Remove the starter and you should see an imprint of the ring gear. Press the end of a thin steel rule into this compacted area until it hits the end of the starter gear. Record the depth of the compacted putty, and that is your clearance between the two gears.
All seriousness aside, you seemed to have some improvement with the shim. Maybe you need to play around with the thickness to fine tune it.
What is your target gap between the end of the starter's drive gear (when retracted) and the engine side of the flywheel ring gear? If unsure of your measurements and math, you could take a direct measurement the same way we check the pressure stops when rigging an aircraft door.
Clean the starter drive gear with some degreaser, and then put a blob of putty on the end, wide enough to cover the gear teeth, and thick enough to fill the expected gap. The degreaser is to make sure the putty sticks to the starter gear. For the putty, you can use Play-Doh, glazier's putty, plumber's sink putty, or anything similar that won't harden right away.
On the flywheel ring gear, put a think coat of oil so the putty won't stick there. Remember, you want the putty to stick to the starter gear, but not the ring gear. Put the starter firmly in place to mash down the putty. You don't need to bolt down the starter, but do make sure it's fully seated for an accurate measurement.
Remove the starter and you should see an imprint of the ring gear. Press the end of a thin steel rule into this compacted area until it hits the end of the starter gear. Record the depth of the compacted putty, and that is your clearance between the two gears.
and now you want to get technical, hahahahahaha, I’ll stack some more washers until it goes away for good!!!
with all jokes aside though, I know it’s not bottoming out on the flywheel, as it showed no marks and the measurements allowed plenty of clearance. The shim is a .1 thickness so it moved the landing and mesh more centered, I’m afraid at this point with the stacking of shims it may now not engage on the other end.
I’ll perform the test tomorrow, I was actually thinking along the lines of marking compound like checking backlash on a ring and pinion, essentially it’s doing the same trick. I’d also like to see if it’s doing it at a specific time, cold or hot engine, maybe the bevel on the teeth are not allowing good engagement, or the 31 year old flywheel teeth aren’t cutting it anymore....
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
An interesting caveat to how it engages, the direct drive starter had straight cut teeth all the way in as this style has a bevel at the front, I’m guessing to allow for better engagement. I’m not sure how this system works or how it is different, but I noticed that right off the bat. And instead of allowing the teeth to come straight out like the direct drive, the pmgr actually rotates as it shoves the gear outward, almost as if the starter is spinning the gear as it moves into contact with the flywheel teeth, making backlash and clearance extremely important. Maybe this is causing the grinding, the starter spinning at a high rate of speed while engaging the flywheel teeth, sometimes skipping a few teeth as it engages?
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 57,014
Likes: 2,750
From: Virginia
Make sure it's wire correctly. I would re-wire it and get rid of that jumper anyway.
You should be able to run a large battery + wire from the new starter directly to the battery + side of the Ford starter solenoid, and nothing should happen. On the other side of the Ford starter solenoid, run a 12 gauge wire from the large terminal there(no fat wire there anymore) and run it down to the small terminal on the starter where the jumper was.
Now the starter should not spin until the solenoid on the new stater is all the way back, the gear is fully extended. Then it will start spinning.
You should be able to run a large battery + wire from the new starter directly to the battery + side of the Ford starter solenoid, and nothing should happen. On the other side of the Ford starter solenoid, run a 12 gauge wire from the large terminal there(no fat wire there anymore) and run it down to the small terminal on the starter where the jumper was.
Now the starter should not spin until the solenoid on the new stater is all the way back, the gear is fully extended. Then it will start spinning.
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Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
Make sure it's wire correctly. I would re-wire it and get rid of that jumper anyway.
You should be able to run a large battery + wire from the new starter directly to the battery + side of the Ford starter solenoid, and nothing should happen. On the other side of the Ford starter solenoid, run a 12 gauge wire from the large terminal there(no fat wire there anymore) and run it down to the small terminal on the starter where the jumper was.
Now the starter should not spin until the solenoid on the new stater is all the way back, the gear is fully extended. Then it will start spinning.
You should be able to run a large battery + wire from the new starter directly to the battery + side of the Ford starter solenoid, and nothing should happen. On the other side of the Ford starter solenoid, run a 12 gauge wire from the large terminal there(no fat wire there anymore) and run it down to the small terminal on the starter where the jumper was.
Now the starter should not spin until the solenoid on the new stater is all the way back, the gear is fully extended. Then it will start spinning.
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 57,014
Likes: 2,750
From: Virginia
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 7,182
Likes: 1,174
It's easy to tell them apart. That one got resolved...
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
ouch! This may be a little confusing, down on the starter solenoid (on the starter) there are also two large lugs, one of which has the factory short wire going into the case and the other one where the battery cable bolts on, do I put my cable direct to the bottom side of that solenoid as well? It seems that the 12 gauge jumper wire goes to the solenoid in only one spot, but which terminal lug do I hook the large cable to, or does it matter? It seems as if it has to jump through two solenoids....
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
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Diagram shows top post I know, but would it make the difference if moved to the bottom? Like I said, fenderwell solenoid has to excite starter solenoid which transfers through to initiate starter bendix, would this make any difference? I’m not savvy on these starters and how they work.
New User
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23
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From: Derby, Ks
Starter issues
I had all the same symptoms. Used large gauge wires, 3 starters all kinds of shims and starter still sounded like crap. Pulling engine in my case was easier then transmission, 4x4 ect..My flexplate was toast. Looked ok when I bolted it and torque it. I now have a new faceplate and will replace with new bolts considering the labor for this job.