Real-Deal Max Payload???
More Turbo
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 618
Likes: 6
Need some help here. I am looking at F-350 long bed diesels to tow a 5th wheel with a pin weight in the 2600-2800 pound range (don't yet have the trailer). Looking at the specs for the 2017/18 SRW F-350 diesels it appears that they should have ample payload to do this, and the payload appears to have increased significantly over the 2016 models.
However, I looked at a couple of door stickers and the payload was WAY less than I would have expected--in the 3200 pound range. I would expect the max payload to be closer to about 3900 pounds. Are my expectations unrealistic?
Isn't there an option that allows increased payload?
I really don't want to have to get a dually. Can I realistically get enough max payload out of a SRW diesel to tow a 5th wheel with that pin weight and still have a reasonable margin for cargo?
thanks
Matt
However, I looked at a couple of door stickers and the payload was WAY less than I would have expected--in the 3200 pound range. I would expect the max payload to be closer to about 3900 pounds. Are my expectations unrealistic?
Isn't there an option that allows increased payload?
I really don't want to have to get a dually. Can I realistically get enough max payload out of a SRW diesel to tow a 5th wheel with that pin weight and still have a reasonable margin for cargo?
thanks
Matt
It's close enough for me. CC Short Bed .
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
I tow a 13,999 gross lb 5th wheel with my 2107 Lariat Value pkg, 6.7L CCSB and exactly 3500 lb payload.
I just make it under payload. I would not want to tow anything heavier.
2800 lb pin weight
37 LB Andersen 5th wheel hitch
400 lbs of people in the cabin
150 lbs of dog and stuff in the cabin
I just make it under payload. I would not want to tow anything heavier.
2800 lb pin weight
37 LB Andersen 5th wheel hitch
400 lbs of people in the cabin
150 lbs of dog and stuff in the cabin
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
Don't be to impressed - that yellow sticker number is based on GVWR and that's a number that Ford pulls out of thin air. You can get the same truck with either a 10,000 or 11,400 GVWR - exactly the same truck, but one has a gross weight RATING 1,400 higher than the other. GVWR is simply for the purpose of taxes, registration or licensing, just depending on where you live. It has little to do with real world payload.
For example, a F350 with a GVWR of 12,001# pulling a 14,000# fifth wheel would require a Class A exempt license in Texas. If commercial, it would require a CDL. With a 11,400# or 10,000# GVWR (same truck) it only requires a Class C license.
A more realistic payload - for non-commercial purposes - can be calculated from the axle ratings which are based on the actual capacities of the suspension, axle and tires.
For example, a F350 with a GVWR of 12,001# pulling a 14,000# fifth wheel would require a Class A exempt license in Texas. If commercial, it would require a CDL. With a 11,400# or 10,000# GVWR (same truck) it only requires a Class C license.
A more realistic payload - for non-commercial purposes - can be calculated from the axle ratings which are based on the actual capacities of the suspension, axle and tires.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
Just wanted to make a quick post to say I’m really enjoying this site so far. I’ve learned more here in 10 min with regards to payload then 3 hours at the dealership. I currently have a 2018 F-350 CCSB 6.7 SRW being built so I can be legally crossing the boarder into the USA. Otherwise I’d by a F250 and feel quite safe on the highway to everyone. Ford could build a excellent capable F-150 / F-250 but they don’t. Why you ask. So we’ll go buy a F-250/350/450. Ok not exactly but you would agree that they can be more then what they are. Especially the 150. Just my opinion as always. Again really getting awesome information here. Thank you all.
Senior User
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 165
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, Canada
Just an observation. Since all of the big 3 are relatively close together in GVW/GCWR/RAWR, it’s probably fair to say that they’re bumping up against the maximum weights that this class of truck can tow/ haul. Seem every time the truck manufacturers make a small increase in capability,the RV manufacturers increase the size and pin weight of their RV’s. Maybe it’s time that those who want a 45 foot, 20k fifth wheel need to move up to a medium duty truck.
Posting Guru
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,655
Likes: 21
From: Western MA
Need some help here. I am looking at F-350 long bed diesels to tow a 5th wheel with a pin weight in the 2600-2800 pound range (don't yet have the trailer). Looking at the specs for the 2017/18 SRW F-350 diesels it appears that they should have ample payload to do this, and the payload appears to have increased significantly over the 2016 models.
However, I looked at a couple of door stickers and the payload was WAY less than I would have expected--in the 3200 pound range. I would expect the max payload to be closer to about 3900 pounds. Are my expectations unrealistic?
Isn't there an option that allows increased payload?
I really don't want to have to get a dually. Can I realistically get enough max payload out of a SRW diesel to tow a 5th wheel with that pin weight and still have a reasonable margin for cargo?
thanks
Matt
However, I looked at a couple of door stickers and the payload was WAY less than I would have expected--in the 3200 pound range. I would expect the max payload to be closer to about 3900 pounds. Are my expectations unrealistic?
Isn't there an option that allows increased payload?
I really don't want to have to get a dually. Can I realistically get enough max payload out of a SRW diesel to tow a 5th wheel with that pin weight and still have a reasonable margin for cargo?
thanks
Matt
FTE Community Team
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 3,341
Likes: 1,056
From: Florida
My gross weight 13,995 5th Wheel came from the factory with a pin weight of 2260 lbs DRY. That’s without a battery, propane or any water on board. At 2800 lbs it’s light by usual standards.
5th wheels usually run pin weights about 20-23% of gross when loaded.
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Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
Cross-Country
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 77
Likes: 1
im not sure if I’m reading your post properly but isn’t the base GVWR of all F-350 11500 and 10000 / 11400 is a down grade of the F-350. The trucks are not the same. when you downgrade the GVWR your also downgrading the suspension right. The axel tranny and engine remain the same. There are allot of folks that buy a F250 and swap out the bed blocks to gain 1+” of squat. HD suspension 250/350 only differ by one leaf spring a taller bed mount block and the rear axle diff hub holds more fluid ( almost a pint more ) at least this is my understanding when reading. I’m sure I’m missing other things too.
No - in most cases suspension will not be downgraded.
GVWR is a *number* that the manufacturer (within reason) pulls out of thin air. It determines licencing and registration in many states. It also, in many cases, determines what safety standards the truck will comply with. You can go to the Ford build & price website and select any (or none) of the GVWR options they offer - and this is on the same truck - and by same truck, I mean you'll find (when the truck is built) that the front and rear axle ratings are the same.
Axle ratings - unlike GVWR - are determined by such as tire load ratings, suspension design, and often by the axle design. Exceed these *limits* at your own risk - you're a test pilot when you exceed them. Total the front and rear axle ratings and you'll (almost) always find that they total more than the GVWR.
So what happens if you exceed GVWR? Likely nothing unless you are a commercial operator and get scaled. I've never even heard of a non-commercial operator getting scaled. Now, if you're involved in an accident and they can show that you were exceeding the weight limit for which you were licensed or registered, some smart lawyer might try to make something of it (they always do), but unless it can be linked to the cause of the accident, it is unlikely they will get far. Also, keep in mind that it is difficult in practice to max out both axles without exceeding the limit on one of them.
But what happens if you exceed the axle rating (which means you are probably also exceeding tire and perhaps other limits)? Tire problems are most likely, but handling and maintenance problems are also likely.
It is a mess and it ain't easy to determine how much truck is needed for various applications. For instance, a truck may be rated to tow a certain amount of weight, but considering that trailers require a certain amount of weight on the tongue or king pin for stability, people often run in to payload limits even though they are well within the tow weight limits. Dealers and manufacturers want to sell trucks and RV's so they quote dry weights rather than gross or likely operating weights. "Sure your 1/2 ton truck will pull this 16,000# fifth wheel because the (empty) pin weight is only 2100#." <G>
Hotshot
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 19,706
Likes: 12,845
From: Wyoming
The de-rated GVWR is a paper de-rate. Nothing is physically different on the truck except for the sticker in the driver's door frame. If you're in commercial transport the listed GVWR is what you have to stick to. If you exceed that and are caught the fines can be quite significant.
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
Fleet Mechanic
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,363
Likes: 5
From: Burton NB Canada
Thankx for the extended explanation
I'm probably going to get myself in trouble by generalizing, but let me toss out a few things that may make GVWR and payload more understandable.
No - in most cases suspension will not be downgraded.
GVWR is a *number* that the manufacturer (within reason) pulls out of thin air. It determines licencing and registration in many states. It also, in many cases, determines what safety standards the truck will comply with. You can go to the Ford build & price website and select any (or none) of the GVWR options they offer - and this is on the same truck - and by same truck, I mean you'll find (when the truck is built) that the front and rear axle ratings are the same.
Axle ratings - unlike GVWR - are determined by such as tire load ratings, suspension design, and often by the axle design. Exceed these *limits* at your own risk - you're a test pilot when you exceed them. Total the front and rear axle ratings and you'll (almost) always find that they total more than the GVWR.
So what happens if you exceed GVWR? Likely nothing unless you are a commercial operator and get scaled. I've never even heard of a non-commercial operator getting scaled. Now, if you're involved in an accident and they can show that you were exceeding the weight limit for which you were licensed or registered, some smart lawyer might try to make something of it (they always do), but unless it can be linked to the cause of the accident, it is unlikely they will get far. Also, keep in mind that it is difficult in practice to max out both axles without exceeding the limit on one of them.
But what happens if you exceed the axle rating (which means you are probably also exceeding tire and perhaps other limits)? Tire problems are most likely, but handling and maintenance problems are also likely.
It is a mess and it ain't easy to determine how much truck is needed for various applications. For instance, a truck may be rated to tow a certain amount of weight, but considering that trailers require a certain amount of weight on the tongue or king pin for stability, people often run in to payload limits even though they are well within the tow weight limits. Dealers and manufacturers want to sell trucks and RV's so they quote dry weights rather than gross or likely operating weights. "Sure your 1/2 ton truck will pull this 16,000# fifth wheel because the (empty) pin weight is only 2100#." <G>
No - in most cases suspension will not be downgraded.
GVWR is a *number* that the manufacturer (within reason) pulls out of thin air. It determines licencing and registration in many states. It also, in many cases, determines what safety standards the truck will comply with. You can go to the Ford build & price website and select any (or none) of the GVWR options they offer - and this is on the same truck - and by same truck, I mean you'll find (when the truck is built) that the front and rear axle ratings are the same.
Axle ratings - unlike GVWR - are determined by such as tire load ratings, suspension design, and often by the axle design. Exceed these *limits* at your own risk - you're a test pilot when you exceed them. Total the front and rear axle ratings and you'll (almost) always find that they total more than the GVWR.
So what happens if you exceed GVWR? Likely nothing unless you are a commercial operator and get scaled. I've never even heard of a non-commercial operator getting scaled. Now, if you're involved in an accident and they can show that you were exceeding the weight limit for which you were licensed or registered, some smart lawyer might try to make something of it (they always do), but unless it can be linked to the cause of the accident, it is unlikely they will get far. Also, keep in mind that it is difficult in practice to max out both axles without exceeding the limit on one of them.
But what happens if you exceed the axle rating (which means you are probably also exceeding tire and perhaps other limits)? Tire problems are most likely, but handling and maintenance problems are also likely.
It is a mess and it ain't easy to determine how much truck is needed for various applications. For instance, a truck may be rated to tow a certain amount of weight, but considering that trailers require a certain amount of weight on the tongue or king pin for stability, people often run in to payload limits even though they are well within the tow weight limits. Dealers and manufacturers want to sell trucks and RV's so they quote dry weights rather than gross or likely operating weights. "Sure your 1/2 ton truck will pull this 16,000# fifth wheel because the (empty) pin weight is only 2100#." <G>
Super Moderator
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 37,383
Likes: 1,867
From: Frederick, MD
where I live it’s very very common to find the Department of transport sitting at The boarder just itching to get all the trucks and trailers; weighing them to ensure your staying within your specs ie; GAWR, GCWR payload etc; I’ve seen and had one of my friends fined for an overloaded F-250. He left a pile of firewood and moved a bunch of stuff to the back living room just to be able to continue his trip.
You are PA? I live south of Gettysburg. My wife does extensive work all through PA. We take the 5th wheel.
Never seen the weight police.
DOT cares about axle ratings and tire ratings and finally what are registered for.