Failed smog
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes: 219
From: W (BY GOD) V
The proper fix is to have the holes reamed out and bushings installed. Most places don't do that unless you specify.
Smear a big glob of 5th wheel grease around both ends of the shafts, and take it back to Mr. Smoggypants. The thicker and firmer the grease the better.
CG.
MR SNARKY...
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes: 219
From: W (BY GOD) V
Pre OBD2, yes, a smog tech is supposed to verify timing and rpm at idle. He also is supposed to do an EGR functional test if he is performing a 2 speed idle test.
Many smog shops will refuse to test a pre obd2 vehicle because they need to work harder for their $40, $50, or $60 fee.
But to say that they aren't supposed to is misinformed.
This info was gotten from my smog book, and from asking my brother-in-law who owns a smog shop and is California Star Certified.
Are you talking AZ or CA?
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,209
Likes: 12
From: Black Hills of SD
A lot of things can affect the timing. Try timing it with the vac gauge. Time to max vacuum and then back it up a little. But with it taking that much initial, I'd guess maybe something isn't functioning properly in the distributor advance mechanisms. I use an advance, or dial back, timing light which makes diagnosing easy but you can check yours too. The mechanical advance should start in around 1500 and be all in around 2500rpm. The vacuum advance you can check with your hand held vacuum pump. I don't have specs but a service manual or old Motors Manual will have them for your distributor.
Timing all in at around 3000 rpm, should be in the 36 degree range. Of course most of the specs are just a starting point due to the reformulation of gasoline since the truck was built.
Also check the slack in the timing chain. If your strong enough you can grab the crank pulley, or use a socket wrench. Rock the crank back and forth while watching the timing mark. You can feel the slop in the timing chain. If it is over about 8 degrees, you should replace the timing set. I have seen sbc engines still running with as much as 22 degrees slop.
Timing all in at around 3000 rpm, should be in the 36 degree range. Of course most of the specs are just a starting point due to the reformulation of gasoline since the truck was built.
Also check the slack in the timing chain. If your strong enough you can grab the crank pulley, or use a socket wrench. Rock the crank back and forth while watching the timing mark. You can feel the slop in the timing chain. If it is over about 8 degrees, you should replace the timing set. I have seen sbc engines still running with as much as 22 degrees slop.
Postmaster
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,595
Likes: 5
From: Pasadena, Ca
Well, D-Rat already said that AZ doesn't check timing. And here in Ca they would need either a wishbone from a Large Tom Turkey and a piece of Big Red bubble gum to checking timing and rpm or they can use a timing light, which ever is handy.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,217
Likes: 154
when I was messing it, I installed a brand new EGR (because I had one). It had no effect.
Your summary is what I was thinking....there's a leak at the throttle shafts, but not sufficient to cause the type of vacuum leak I'm experiencing. As stated, I have 3 different carbs, and they all leak there. On one, it passed last year and that one has a terrible leak that made the truck fall on its face past half throttle. The other two I have run great on the road, but neither of them idle smoothly.
Regarding ignition timing.....I'm not sure how accurate my timing marks are because it's showing 16-17 degrees of advance I keep reading that advance on this motor should be in the single digits, but when I retard it, it runs like crap and I lose the bulk of my engine vacuum as measured by my vac guage. In short, it runs good at that much advance - just not sure how accurate the reading is. I wonder if the timing marks are off or if the distributor isn't clocked properly (?)
Your summary is what I was thinking....there's a leak at the throttle shafts, but not sufficient to cause the type of vacuum leak I'm experiencing. As stated, I have 3 different carbs, and they all leak there. On one, it passed last year and that one has a terrible leak that made the truck fall on its face past half throttle. The other two I have run great on the road, but neither of them idle smoothly.
Regarding ignition timing.....I'm not sure how accurate my timing marks are because it's showing 16-17 degrees of advance I keep reading that advance on this motor should be in the single digits, but when I retard it, it runs like crap and I lose the bulk of my engine vacuum as measured by my vac guage. In short, it runs good at that much advance - just not sure how accurate the reading is. I wonder if the timing marks are off or if the distributor isn't clocked properly (?)
You want the vacuum line to the vacuum advance servo disconnected and plugged when you check timing, in order to see what your initial timing really is at idle speed.
You could check your balancer against true TDC, by finding the top of the stroke on cylinder #1 with a piston stop or whatever, and then looking to see if the pointer is indeed pointing at 0º.
Regarding checking for timing chain slops, you can also remove the distributor cap, and observe the rotor for corresponding movement.
Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes: 219
From: W (BY GOD) V
Conjecture, hearsay, don't know sh!iat and just like to hear myself ramble...
I have read and read, CA OBD II - OBD - pre-OBD and cannot find for the life of me where an EMISS TECH will open the hood and use a timing light and tachometer. Just doesn't compute. He shoves the wand up the truck's butt and sniffs. It is either go or no-go. Engine settings are the responsibility of the owner/repair facility.
And I would think a visual would only be performed after a failed test most likely being a repair shop or facility judge.
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 712
Likes: 1
From: Mesa, AZ
That's the answer I thought I would get...
Conjecture, hearsay, don't know sh!iat and just like to hear myself ramble...
I have read and read, CA OBD II - OBD - pre-OBD and cannot find for the life of me where an EMISS TECH will open the hood and use a timing light and tachometer. Just doesn't compute. He shoves the wand up the truck's butt and sniffs. It is either go or no-go. Engine settings are the responsibility of the owner/repair facility.
And I would think a visual would only be performed after a failed test most likely being a repair shop or facility judge.
Conjecture, hearsay, don't know sh!iat and just like to hear myself ramble...
I have read and read, CA OBD II - OBD - pre-OBD and cannot find for the life of me where an EMISS TECH will open the hood and use a timing light and tachometer. Just doesn't compute. He shoves the wand up the truck's butt and sniffs. It is either go or no-go. Engine settings are the responsibility of the owner/repair facility.
And I would think a visual would only be performed after a failed test most likely being a repair shop or facility judge.
AZ does the sniff test at load, then at idle, then checks PCV, and confirms there's an EGR there. If this truck were a bit newer, they'd look for a cat on the exhaust as well. That's it. They're State run inspection stations, not licensed shops...and they're largely idiots who are used to doing OBDII inspections where all they have to do is plug in and confirm you're not throwing any codes.
2 inspections in a row and these idiots can't drive a stick. First guy wound up the truck in granny gear wondering why it wouldn't go fast....Next idiot couldn't find 4th gear and kept slamming it back into second and about making the truck jump off the rollers. I wanted to beat both their a$$es for being stupid and abusive to my truck.
And you're never gonna let that snarky comment go are you?
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Cargo Master
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,132
Likes: 219
From: W (BY GOD) V
... well no ...
It has caused me great emotional damage and now I question my very being...
I am very sensitive you know. I may never recover...
Did you ever get the idle down and if so, what did you find?
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 712
Likes: 1
From: Mesa, AZ
I did get it down around 900. It won't idle worth a darn below that. Adjusted timing and mix screws to maximize vacuum at about 17". Mix screws are out 3 full turns - way more than should be needed. A/F mixture at the exhaust using a broadband 02 sensor reads at about 20:1, so a vac leak is almost a certainty. I doubt the leak is that bad at the throttle shafts, but sure can't find anything else. Have traced all vac lines - hoses are soft and not brittle, all connections appear good.
Has me baffled for sure. Unless I can get that A/F mixture down around 14:1, there's no sense in retesting. You called it on being lean, and the jumpy idle is most likely due to a random lean misfire in a random cylinder. That's what threw me into thinking it was running rich.
Post Fiend
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 8,209
Likes: 12
From: Black Hills of SD
That's the answer I thought I would get...
Conjecture, hearsay, don't know sh!iat and just like to hear myself ramble...
I have read and read, CA OBD II - OBD - pre-OBD and cannot find for the life of me where an EMISS TECH will open the hood and use a timing light and tachometer. Just doesn't compute. He shoves the wand up the truck's butt and sniffs. It is either go or no-go. Engine settings are the responsibility of the owner/repair facility.
And I would think a visual would only be performed after a failed test most likely being a repair shop or facility judge.
Conjecture, hearsay, don't know sh!iat and just like to hear myself ramble...
I have read and read, CA OBD II - OBD - pre-OBD and cannot find for the life of me where an EMISS TECH will open the hood and use a timing light and tachometer. Just doesn't compute. He shoves the wand up the truck's butt and sniffs. It is either go or no-go. Engine settings are the responsibility of the owner/repair facility.
And I would think a visual would only be performed after a failed test most likely being a repair shop or facility judge.
Logistics Pro
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,217
Likes: 154
I did get it down around 900. It won't idle worth a darn below that. Adjusted timing and mix screws to maximize vacuum at about 17". Mix screws are out 3 full turns - way more than should be needed. A/F mixture at the exhaust using a broadband 02 sensor reads at about 20:1, so a vac leak is almost a certainty. I doubt the leak is that bad at the throttle shafts, but sure can't find anything else. Have traced all vac lines - hoses are soft and not brittle, all connections appear good.
Has me baffled for sure. Unless I can get that A/F mixture down around 14:1, there's no sense in retesting. You called it on being lean, and the jumpy idle is most likely due to a random lean misfire in a random cylinder. That's what threw me into thinking it was running rich.
Has me baffled for sure. Unless I can get that A/F mixture down around 14:1, there's no sense in retesting. You called it on being lean, and the jumpy idle is most likely due to a random lean misfire in a random cylinder. That's what threw me into thinking it was running rich.
Tuned
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 375
Likes: 3
From: Southern OR
You could put the carb that did pass emissions a couple years ago back on??
Thread Starter
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Elder User
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 712
Likes: 1
From: Mesa, AZ
It's kinda amazing that it did. It's missing half the choke parts....and it was almost undriveable due to it falling on its face at anything more than half throttle. Not worth the trouble in my view. there's a vac leak to be found.
Regarding registering as a classic - I can't do that now that it's failed smog. Has to pass first one more time before I do that.....and I don't want one of those ugly plates, nor do I want the mileage restrictions or the more expensive insurance to cover it as a classic. It can and will pass...just gotta find the issue.
That said, I've got a favorite shop looking it over now. Yeah, I'm a little embarrassed I couldn't find it myself, but I took them a bunch of diagnostic info, along with a couple extra carbs to steal parts from if needed. I only have so much time to throw at this.
Once this is sorted, it gets a trans rebuild.