PMGR starter problems!
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,165
Likes: 375
From: Near Los Angeles
PMGR starter problems!
Hey guys, I have a bugger of a problem. My old (77) starter went out. Installed a rebuilt and it would not disengage. Since I have headers and had to a C clamp and crow bar to get the old one out, I changed to a 92 4.9 smaller pmgr starter.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
Cargo Master
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,354
Likes: 48
From: Great American SouthWest
Hey guys, I have a bugger of a problem. My old (77) starter went out. Installed a rebuilt and it would not disengage. Since I have headers and had to a C clamp and crow bar to get the old one out, I changed to a 92 4.9 smaller pmgr starter.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
I had a bad bendix in the 77, and it would "fall in" to the flywheel on acceleration. It would then "fall out" on braking.
Tuned
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 448
Likes: 13
Hey guys, I have a bugger of a problem. My old (77) starter went out. Installed a rebuilt and it would not disengage. Since I have headers and had to a C clamp and crow bar to get the old one out, I changed to a 92 4.9 smaller pmgr starter.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
I researched and changed the 4 ga. lead to the batter side of the sol., and ran a 10 ga. lead from the post on the sol. where the + lead bolted on originally, and connected to the small wire on the starter.
It started fine a few times, disengaged fine. But when I drove it it was fine for a few miles until I got on it. Then it made a terrible noise, as though the starter was engaging. I thought maybe the oem solenoid beside the battery was going bad and making the trigger lead hot while running. I disconnected the trigger lead while the truck was running. Got on it from a stop and no noise. But half way around the block it started again.
It is fine at idle or cruise. But on acceleration it makes a terrible noise. It makes me wonder if a flexplate nut came loose.
All was fine before the starter went. No noise.
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,165
Likes: 375
From: Near Los Angeles
Hey guys. Problem solved. I installed a washer between the starter and the bellhousing, one on each mount bolt, and the noise is gone.
I know I should remove the starter and fab a spacer to fill the gap around the circumference to the starter does not torque/flex upon starts, but for temp fix, it is good.
I know I should remove the starter and fab a spacer to fill the gap around the circumference to the starter does not torque/flex upon starts, but for temp fix, it is good.
Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,165
Likes: 375
From: Near Los Angeles
I had no idea the shim existed. I will have to get one.
I'm still cranking slow and can't understand why. The batt. tests good. I cleaned all connections and ground excessively well. It is one of two things: either I damaged this new starter by running with it intermitently making the engagement noise, or I installed too thin gauge power lead.
The article I read said 4ga or 2ga wire. Mine is the diameter of a pencil, so, I assume that is ... 6ga? It is also 48 inches long, so that must hinder a bit.
I'm still cranking slow and can't understand why. The batt. tests good. I cleaned all connections and ground excessively well. It is one of two things: either I damaged this new starter by running with it intermitently making the engagement noise, or I installed too thin gauge power lead.
The article I read said 4ga or 2ga wire. Mine is the diameter of a pencil, so, I assume that is ... 6ga? It is also 48 inches long, so that must hinder a bit.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,354
Likes: 48
From: Great American SouthWest
I had no idea the shim existed. I will have to get one.
I'm still cranking slow and can't understand why. The batt. tests good. I cleaned all connections and ground excessively well. It is one of two things: either I damaged this new starter by running with it intermitently making the engagement noise, or I installed too thin gauge power lead.
The article I read said 4ga or 2ga wire. Mine is the diameter of a pencil, so, I assume that is ... 6ga? It is also 48 inches long, so that must hinder a bit.
I'm still cranking slow and can't understand why. The batt. tests good. I cleaned all connections and ground excessively well. It is one of two things: either I damaged this new starter by running with it intermitently making the engagement noise, or I installed too thin gauge power lead.
The article I read said 4ga or 2ga wire. Mine is the diameter of a pencil, so, I assume that is ... 6ga? It is also 48 inches long, so that must hinder a bit.
Battery: how did you determine that it is good? Just because it tests at 13.7 doesnt meen it still throws several hundred amps on demand
Cable: 1/4" sounds small
Ground: is the ground as large as, or larger than, the hot lead?
Starter: you may have fried a winding in the starter.
Did you ever determine why the starter gear was engaging the flywheel under acceleration? If it needed a shim, I think it'd do it all the time
Perhaps something else was activating the starter upon acceleration. Maybe a wire shorting against the wire that throws the starter solenoid
The noise that comes with acceleration but diminishes with braking is too intermittent, but apparently not random. Shim won't fix that. The real question is: what is causing the starter gear to move?
My 77 was doing that, because there was something broken in the bendix.
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Thread Starter
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,165
Likes: 375
From: Near Los Angeles
Battery: how did you determine that it is good? Just because it tests at 13.7 doesnt meen it still throws several hundred amps on demand Good pointI always replace my battery every three years. I noticed it was close to expiration, so I replaced it with an 850 amp.
Cable: 1/4" sounds small I agree.
Ground: is the ground as large as, or larger than, the hot lead? Yes, the ground is 2ga, all shiny and clean.
Starter: you may have fried a winding in the starter. Yes, again I agree.
Did you ever determine why the starter gear was engaging the flywheel under acceleration? If it needed a shim, I think it'd do it all the time. I too am baffled. I'm looking forward to examining the bendix gear when I remove the starter. All I know is that it only engaged when driving and acc.
hard. Now, with the shims, it only engages when the key is cranked.
Perhaps something else was activating the starter upon acceleration. Maybe a wire shorting against the wire that throws the starter solenoid. Of course that is possible, but I've checked and double checked. I will try to test the solenoid/trigger wire and see it it turns hot during acc or high rpm
The noise that comes with acceleration but diminishes with braking is too intermittent, but apparently not random. Shim won't fix that. The real question is: what is causing the starter gear to move? Yes again. But,
after the above mentioned tests and checks, where do I go from there? I'll ck the trigger wire during high rpm, install a thicker hot lead, and replace the starter. Other than that every terminal is clean and shiny. I will post what I find when I examine the starter. I will also take a look at the flex plate nuts.
My 77 was doing that, because there was something broken in the bendix.
Cable: 1/4" sounds small I agree.
Ground: is the ground as large as, or larger than, the hot lead? Yes, the ground is 2ga, all shiny and clean.
Starter: you may have fried a winding in the starter. Yes, again I agree.
Did you ever determine why the starter gear was engaging the flywheel under acceleration? If it needed a shim, I think it'd do it all the time. I too am baffled. I'm looking forward to examining the bendix gear when I remove the starter. All I know is that it only engaged when driving and acc.
hard. Now, with the shims, it only engages when the key is cranked.
Perhaps something else was activating the starter upon acceleration. Maybe a wire shorting against the wire that throws the starter solenoid. Of course that is possible, but I've checked and double checked. I will try to test the solenoid/trigger wire and see it it turns hot during acc or high rpm
The noise that comes with acceleration but diminishes with braking is too intermittent, but apparently not random. Shim won't fix that. The real question is: what is causing the starter gear to move? Yes again. But,
after the above mentioned tests and checks, where do I go from there? I'll ck the trigger wire during high rpm, install a thicker hot lead, and replace the starter. Other than that every terminal is clean and shiny. I will post what I find when I examine the starter. I will also take a look at the flex plate nuts.
My 77 was doing that, because there was something broken in the bendix.
I'm posting this because the system wouldn't allow me to post without writing something here.
Cargo Master
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,354
Likes: 48
From: Great American SouthWest
I had another from O'Reilly that would (sometimes) keep the starter energized after starting. If you gave it a solid whack with your fist, it might stop. Unfortunately, that's always when the hood wants to stick...
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Lead Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,165
Likes: 375
From: Near Los Angeles
I'll do the tests tomorrow on the fender relay. However, I don't like having a wire in the engine compartment constantly live. I think I will change to a 4 post relay that will activate both starter wire when the key is in the start position.
Here is a link. Scroll down and there is photo and part # PMGR Starter Wiring Question - Ford Bronco Forum
...and of course, after I read the thread a bit I see guys saying the Echlin is junk now. I'll bet they started making them guess where. Guys saying they fried after two cranks! Ouch.
Here is a link. Scroll down and there is photo and part # PMGR Starter Wiring Question - Ford Bronco Forum
...and of course, after I read the thread a bit I see guys saying the Echlin is junk now. I'll bet they started making them guess where. Guys saying they fried after two cranks! Ouch.
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