hey guys, this forum has been awesome! I'm looking to order a 2017 f250 in the next 45-60 days but trying to do my homework before i venture on. That being said I need some help with pricing.

im wanting to order at 2017 F250 king ranch diesel 4x4. My options to build come out to msrp $72,535 and invoice of $68,367

i have one quote for 500$ under invoice right now with 300$ doc fee not including rebates. I'm just wondering how much better I can do? In my area there is $1750
in rebates and I have a $500 AQHA cash coupon.

A local dealer of mine mine has a truck similar to what I want right now advertised online with an MSRP of $73,340 and price of $64,760

taking that as reference I feel I can do better than what my first quote was? Thoughts?
Thanks in advance

 

I would look closely at the priced out dealers fine print. While that price is awful close to a full net price on the truck, chances are high they are including additional rebates to hit that figure that you might not qualify for. I don't see too many dealers advertising at net net net. The original offer is less than $900 off that figure, so clearly somewhere between those two figures is attainable. I sell trucks for a living so of course I take the perspective that the dealer deserves to make some profit. You're at the "few hundred bucks on a $68k investment" point.

 

Frantz, can you stack the 1750 ford rebate with a 500$ AQHA ?

 

Also it's a bit more than 900$ Difference even with rebates because the original msrp is 805$ less than the local dealers price on a similar truck to my build

my build $72535
dealer site similar build - $73340

 

AQHA is stackable. So if they are doing $500 under invoice with your $1750 and $500 AQHA I got $65,617, compared to the other price of $64740... but that didn't take into account the MSRP difference. If you want to post a link to the truck you see advertised I'll let you know if I see any funny business from my perspective.

 

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...aff=share_text

Thanks frantz

 

MSRP is accurately depicted (some places use add ons to show a greater discount)
I'll be honest, it looks clean, but there isn't any fine print disclaimer shown and the numbers don't really work from a business perspective. I looked at a few other Georgia Ford sites (because most of this stuff is varied by state law) and the one thing I see is that there is a GA Lemon Law fee. I don't see if they are including destination which is $1295.

To me, if the deal is as good as they say it is, you're $2000 UNDER net net net... so not a viable business practice There simply is not $8580 in mark up on that truck, so they absolutely must be making it up somewhere else. Look out for requirements to trade, forced in house financing (which is required for the Ford rebate), or other processing/prep fees. It's most certainly a too good to be true marketing strategy. Even the cars.com page shows this is $6855 under avg... I don't think there is that much spread in the retail market, there certainly isn't in my neck of the woods, or else I'd be making some impressive bank (18% of profit front and back end, and we sell about 10 cars a person here. That'd be $10k a month before warranty and such, and everyone would want to sell cars and own a dealership).

I've found this chart not to be kept up to date, but I haven't found a better resource yet. Ga can have doc fees up to $545, so that's a potential $245 difference from what you were quoted too. Edmunds doc fees

IMO working on an offset from invoice is a smart way to shop and keep things fair for both parties without smoke and mirrors. If you look at a factory invoice, in the bottom left corner there is a "HB" number. That's the holdback. Take out the packs charged to the unit for overhead and that's your unit profit margin. On trucks in this range it's about $2k of holdback, and generally dealers charge the unit between $300-$500 for a pack (to spread cost of all units out rather than itemizing each unit's cost to the lot). So $500 under invoice probably represents about a $1200 unit profit that you can work with. Going below that gets into the "what am I missing" price range where I'm very confident they are pulling something somewhere.

 

No offense intended Frantz as I know you sell trucks for a living.... but if dealers really didn't want any smoke and mirrors then "dealer holdbacks" would not exist and the "invoice" price would actually be what it cost the dealer to obtain and sell the truck.


Personally I think "smoke and mirrors" is exactly what dealers want. The more ways to confuse the customer the better shot they have at making extra money on a deal.


On a side note: why do cars like SCION and SATURN not make it? Do you think it was because of their no haggle prices?

 

None taken. Holdback is not intended to be profitable, it's just like any business plan, you find ways to take anything you get and work with it. Holdback was invented to help encourage dealers to take more inventory from the manufacturers. We do actually buy the trucks from Ford at invoice. That's what we are financing them for for floorplan. Have you ever taken a moment to figure out how much in interest a dealership pays a month in order to have a selection for you to look at? So the fact that there is a product that cost nearly $70k and you have local businesses all over the country scrambling to make a few bucks on the front end is pretty damn good for consumers. Whining about how much under invoice you can get really is pretty silly compared to nearly any other product you buy. Every commodity has volume aspects, bonuses for sales figures, etc, so we in the car industry are really no different, and frankly no more crooked than any other capitalist venture. The fact that there are so many of us and so much volume creates a pretty awesome deal for consumers. Consider the price I pay as a dealership employee is a few hundred bucks less than what you can arrange in a 5 minute negotiation is pretty sweet. I can only get it at my price again, because Ford gives an employee kickback. Actually I make more money on a commission for myself than I would selling to a general customer at invoice.

Yes, the less a customer knows, the more you can make off them, and the more they know the more you have to find other ways to hide where you're making the money. Too many internet articles tell you to negotiate the prices separate and then you're good. This has caused everyone to artificially lower the "price" and then pad it with other fees and stuff, and the customer goes to the cheap price rather than local shop to "save" money, never realizing that they actually paid the same amount when all was said and done. I spend time on this forum for my own gain because I learn about the product and consumer perceptions. I've sold a few trucks to guys on the forums as well. I try to be very fair, open, and honest with advice I give, and no one taking my advice would get taken without missing some details someone snuck in on them. I am weary of too good to be true internet deals. I am not just a salesman, but a commercial account manager, so while I don't know every piece of money that comes in, I write my own deals and see the accounting screens for how much stuff cost us and what the profits are prior to putting them together. I've also pointed to the many publicly traded companies to show that there simply isn't the huge margins folks think their are, and if you don't believe me, buy their stock and reap the rewards! How many car dealerships did Trump own? Probably a reason the answer is zero, though you'd almost think it's be right up his ally.

 

Frantz
I always read your posts as what you say is what I've found in 30 years of vehicle buying trucks and cars. Thank you.

 

Do you know if there's any length of membership required before this is active?

 

From the program guidelines

 

Thanks the response. I gotta say your response seemed up front and candid and not filled with "smoke and mirrors" lol.


I am some what surprised that dealerships still have the large number of vehicles on the lot still the way online consumerism has taken off. I guess when making a big purchase like a vehicle most people still prefer to put their hands on it anyway. I didn't test drive my last 2 new vehicle purchases however I did a bunch of online research before buying. I was happy with those vehicles hopefully I'll be just as happy with the Ford.

 

Yeah, I never test drive either. I just pick what I want and get it. Honestly considering getting a Wrangler because I don't think the new Bronco will be budget minded and I will be ordering that without a test drive too. But, most people want something and they want it today. Many times after a test drive a customer will want us to bring something in for them just to see and they'll refuse to commit to buying it without a test drive, even though they just drove the same thing in a different color. I personally send those folks down the street. That's way to flaky to risk dealer trading (where we buy at invoice and do not get holdback, unless they actually trade back to us, which isn't very common these days). And you get folks who want to see a picture of the actual car/truck. "Sir, it's the exact same truck we just drove, only it has navigation". Most dealers don't take inventory pictures anymore (I think that's stupid, but some collective group sold the industry on the idea of stock photos).

IMO it would make sense to just place and order but people don't have the patience for that either. Sure sometimes you break down or get in a wreck, but most consumers would get a vehicle they like more and spend less money if they ordered. Plus you can join AQHA in the mean time and get the extra rebate!

 

bahahaha Touche