According to 5 star Tuning the PCM runs the motor lean, and that is dangerous. They also say the PCM does NOT Account for 10% ethanol.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...the-v10-3.html

"Thanks Guys I really do appreciate the opportunity to earns everyones Business!... Got to love a V10 engine pulling. If your on the fence about a reflash, we dont run our fuel strategies to the ragged edge, these are heavy trucks that you work not mustangs, so we run a very safe fuel strategy and we also compensate for 10% ethanol, which Ford did not in factory form until model years 2011, which aids in making the truck run correctly.

In a nut shell the 2v V10 needs the open loop strategies enabled so not to run in closed loop at WOT causing a lean condition and the 3v V10 needs the fueling delays corrected as some have 60 second delay for open loop. Both V10s need the 10% ethanol strategies"

http://5startuning.com/wp-content/up...NoMountain.pdf

 

It was in CL for sure, I was watching that and the O2 voltages as well as timing, which was at 8 degrees WOT.

 

Yes, I believe you based on what 5 star says. It's not safe in my opinion....or theirs it seems. It's no wonder some vehicles under heavy load ping. Running CL at high load is odd to say the least, and can cause detination.

I'm considering a new tune for my other 2 excursions just to fix fueling issue.

My 3rd excursion does not have this issue it goes into OL on a regular basis. Guess my tunner modded the fuel tables before my supercharger tune.

 

There would be no advantage to open loop that I can think of other than if it would richen up a little over CL. The couple dyno graphs of these I've seen showed a very bumpy line and I assume that's because the AF ratio is jumping around and on the lean side for power. If it would stay CL but also richen up to an ideal for power ratio that would be best.

 

I agree, but the problem is narrow band O2 sensors.
The O2 sensors we have and all manufactures use are narrow band. They only work for afr of about .8 lamba 1.2 lamba I think. AFR of say 14.5 to 15.1 (for gas) or so. They cannot be used to richen a mix....that is why the PCM should go into open loop, to richen up mix and modify timing.

It's the way mitibushi programmed their pcm, I guess ford does too and I bet GM. You would think they woud use wide band O2 sensors but they dont.

Wide bands could read and relay a richer mix...most self learning aftermarket PCM systems use wide band O2s.

 

I am enjoying the talk about open and closed loop at WOT but just to clarify again, I do not believe it is pinging at WOT, it's more when you start putting your foot in it towing a trailer up a small hill and continues until you push it hard enough to downshift. I do know for a fact that it will virtually never ping regardless of how you drive it unloaded, it seem (without much seat time experience) it starts pinging with about 7K behind it.

 

That sounds similar to mine. It did ping when mildly loaded, but only on steep hills as I recall. As I'd roll into the throttle, and sometimes rolling off a little, it would ping. Getting on it harder to a downshift would cure it. Towing 13k on a hot day it was really bad and harder to find a sweet spot of not pinging, yet it was kinda hit & miss even with that load. Mine had the right plugs and they were in ok shape. I looked into the cylinders and the pistons looked relatively clean.

Eliminate as much as you can, fuel pressure under load, correct plugs, etc. Consider cleaning the EGR passages in the throttle body if you have EGR, that seems to be a California emissions only thing. After all that, replacing the knock sensor will likely be the cure. It seems to have been the cure for mine, tho I did have a lot of gunk in the EGR passages and since it mostly pinged at part throttle that might have been a factor or the actual cure. EGR lowers cylinder pressure and can reduce/eliminate pinging. Since mine's OBD2 I'd expect it to throw a code if the EGR was flowing less than it should, but the threshold may allow less flow than it needs under some conditions. I still think the knock sensor was the actual cure because some of my pinging happened at throttle positions where I think EGR would have been off, but I wanna put the possible EGR issue out there because I don't know for sure.

 

Unless I'm having a brain fart I don't believe it has an EGR, if it did that would be my first guess, it's been a long week. From the start I've kind of been leaning towards the knock sensor but want to diagnose before tearing into that project....

 

My understanding is that only Califonia trucks have EGR, but not sure. It's pretty easy to see, there will be a steel tube off the driver's side exhaust manifold up to the the valve which is at the throttle body.

If you can manage to disconnect the knock sensor plug in theory you could install the new sensor just about anywhere on the engine block or heads. Even the intake if yours is aluminum, a plastic one probably won't do it. I've had cars that had the sensor on the intake from the factory and they worked fine. If it were mounted to one head it might not hear a ping on the other side, but when mine was pinging is sounded like all 10 at once. There was never a time that it sounded like just one or a few cylinders doing it. Even if it's not a perfect mounting, it might be enough to let you know if it's the problem and whether or not pulling the intake is worth it or even necessary. But if everything else is good then the sensor is the likely culprit.

 

Sorry, I was not clear. High load is not just WOT.

It's when your towing a large load and maybe try to go up a hill. Open loop should come on in all high load situations, not just WOT.

That one of the reasons your pinging in high load situations. You néed a richer afr, and a tune for E10.

Based on what some have said here about being at high load and only having 8 degrees of timing, I guess It should be safe to run the motor in closed loop as Ford did. It just reduces power output to run at 14.7 afr and only 8 degrees of timing.

My tune runs about 20 degrees of timing i think and 11.5 afr at high load.

So maybe your fuel system is needing some help, or O2 sensor or two is borderline.

I would opt for a better fueling strategy though.

 

That 8 degree number is somewhat misleading. I was locked in 2nd pulling a mild hill with the boat hitched and starting from a very low speed, I was trying to keep WOT as long as possible without going too fast. RPM probably didn't go over 3k. In D at WOT unloaded it climbs to 17 before the shift, still doesn't seem like much, but way better than 8.

 

Well apparently everything that has been posted on this thread has been relevant, thank you for your time and the info!

When I get a chance to do some more diagnostics on the truck I don't have a big sexy scanner, just an INNOVA 3130, it does show quite a bit of stuff but not everything. What should I be looking for as far as the live data goes? I sort of know what the O2 sensors should read and I am familiar with looking for inconsistent readings from sensors as they change and if there's any particular reading you want specifics on I can try to let you know what it is.

 

Look at the knock sensor PIDs. I forget exactly what they were, and I don't have access to my stuff here at work, so I can't say specifically.

But do datalog everything to do with the knock sensors that you can find. Make sure when you hear pinging that the PCM is seeing it too. IIRC, there was a PID specifically for how much timing was being pulled out - I only ever saw it go to 4 degrees retard when I was debugging a 93 octane tune with 5-star.

 

I felt bad that I/we kinda hijacked it, glad you've enjoyed the reads.

 

Honestly with my lack of actual seat time in the truck i'm not completely positive on what it's actually doing yet other then what Dads told me so it could very be very relevant.... all I really know at this point from first-hand experience is it sounds like it's pinging with the throttle in the mid range with a load and still runs like a champ as far as power goes.

I will repost where I'm at with diagnostics and what it's doing when something new is found for new followers of this thread.