Haven't had a chance to read through all this, but it seems like this guy does just fine both legally and comfortably in his 2500.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...-cclb-psd.html

 

OH, are you in for a treat! Some friends and I were doing a round the clock mission to "rescue" some rare surplus military items (mines, Nike nuke missile noses with guidance package, rocket carriers and more) and using my gooseneck with 29' deck. We were heading down side street 2 lane road in Utah with parking both sides, still pretty narrow. I whipped the steering wheel to the lock and we made the U-turn in one shot, with the trailer tires going backwards. All three of the other guys were speechless, none of their trucks, even short F150's could even come close!

 

Wow. I'm a firm believer that the DRW is a significant difference in and of itself.

So let me ask you this: What is the difference in an F350 DRW and an F450? Same things but less as drastic differences? Because your post paints a picture of the F250 and F450 being extremely similar trucks from the frame up and not too terribly different from the frame down?

 

There isn't much of a difference. The 450 has the 19.5" wheels which add weight, the wide track front which will add weight, and some stronger leafs which add weight. Doesn't take much steel to be 500lbs of weight different.

Besides that stuff, the superduty line is pretty similar for all superduty models. That is why they all roll down the same assembly line mixed together.

 

Wow again. Just wow.

So this thread has taught me that it is cheaper to turn my F250 into an F450 than it is to trade my F250 for an F450. Seriously, I could buy the parts that are different, sell the ones I take off, and make my truck part for part the exact same truck as an F450 for way less than $20k+ ($15,000 (loss for trade) plus another $5,000 for the upgrade, plus some taxes and charges). I bet the Diesel Brothers could do it for $10k or less (especially with a donor truck).

I already knew going in it won't change the sticker. And that's just crazy to me.

Just goes to show you there are some stupid laws out there.

Sigh.

 

I find it funny, but not surprising, that the guys that state there is minimal difference are the guys with SRW trucks. I've had both, they are not the same. You aren't gong to convince me, I guess I won't you. 500 lbs is a LOT of weight in upgraded items, especially when they consider every pound lost to be worth so much, hence the aluminum body.

 

idk about all that, but I think there's a huge difference in an SRW vs DRW truck. And I think the 500# of stuff is significant.

Where I'm coming from is, from the frame up, there doesn't seem to be any difference whatsoever between a DRW 350 vs 450 -- or even a SRW not including the fenders -- again from the frame up. And from the frame up seems to be the majority of cost in the truck. Under the frame is where the difference seems to be (for all three series by the way), and they seem to be incremental...small differences...but...clearly game changing in terms of payload the higher up you go. Yet, these parts are not significantly more expensive as you move up the line. Like, these under the frame components seem to be not only the minority of cost, but also little different between the various upgrades. It's like the bulk of the cost is the part itself, and if you want a stronger version...it's not just all that expensive.

I think you get the biggest bang for the buck in terms of real differences you can feel, especially as a towing platform when you move to DRW.

The other thing I've learned FOR SURE is you better buy all the truck you will want in the next 5-7 years because even if you convert your truck (part for part) into its bigger siblings, whoever writes these 'laws' that I have never been able to find about non-commercial towing, won't give you credit for the new parts.

<begin conspiracy theory music>

Maybe it's the truck manufacturers who want to force us into buying new trucks for lots of money and their profit -- when in reality we could go to a junk yard and upgrade our own.

<end music>

 

Cheaper yet for Ford to build it in the first place. Their cost can't be much higher for the F450 axles over the F250. Bigger brakes add some more cost. Little bit of cost for the sway bar and heavier springs. It takes the guys working on the line a little bit more time to put the overload springs and sway bar on but it can't be much. 7 19.5's cost more than 5 17-18-20's. Anything you do to it now requires undoing work that's already been done and replacing parts that have already been paid for.


What is it that you tow?

 

I never said those minimal actual design differences don't equate to major differences when it comes to pulling/handling big loads. They absolutely do. But if you look at the builders guide you will see that in reality, there isn't much of a difference in their designs. The axles are similar just a little beefier, the wheels are similar (same for f250 and f350 srw and drw), the frame is the same, and much more is identical across the lines especially when you get above the frame.

But again, those small differences in the superduty line do make a huge difference in how the truck handles weight. As far as 500lbs go, think about a 45lb plate for lifting. You would need 11 of those which does not take up a lot of space to make 500lbs. The steel 19.5" wheels alone probably add a bunch of weight along with the bigger brakes on the f450.

 

This week I'm installing AirLift 5000's. Then I'll be towing a 2014 Coachmen Brookstone 325RL. I'm going to weigh it to know for sure, but the manufacturer says about 2,500# on the pin.

That and gear will put me about 1,200# over my 'sticker' yet leave me a 500# margin under my wheel capacity, 1,000# under my tires capacity (at 80psi), and 3,000# below my axle limit. (Note: these numbers themselves are conservative as I'm rounding the weights up and not 100% of it will end up on the rear axle/tires.)

I'm going on a very short trip to see how it feels, and go from there. I'm in FL, have a very flexible schedule in terms of windy days, and have no intentions of going over mountains until long after this is sorted out.

I'm renting the Coachmen, but the one I buy will have upgraded suspension, disc brakes, and an anti-sway controller -- regardless of the tv. (I'm also in the process of adding a sway bar to my F250).

And while the sticker police are freaking out right now, that's not even my problem.

My problem is, now that I have the 5ver bug, what I really want is a toy hauler. Even I will not even attempt to tow > 21,000# before I have a DRW truck, but I don't want to take a huge loss on a smaller 5ver while I'm waiting for a bigger truck.

My thoughts right now are to just ride it out and continue renting (which is an easy, pleasant experience), or maybe see if I can get a great deal on a used 5ver that is in the range of 14-15k pounds, and hopefully sell it for what I have in it when it comes time for the toy hauler.

 

Airlift to keep the truck level, 2500-2800 on the pin, balance the load in the trailer or keep most of it directly over (or just forward and rearward of the trailer axles). Yup, I'd tow that all day, or across the country, in an otherwise stock F250. Thats enough pin weight to keep the truck nicely planted. Consider when I'd pull a 30,000 lb trailer I only put 5000-5500 on the pin and had excellent control, the trailer NEVER pushed the truck around at all. I might have to drop my pin weight a bit with the 2017 as the M300 axle has a 2000 lb lower rating than the S110 I was towing with.

 

The conversion will be a lot more than few thousand.Not worth it.

 

Thanks guys!

 

There are a few more differences between the F350 and F450 - I'm not sure we even know them all. The front 12" of the frame is different. Some of the front suspension parts are bigger (not just the wide track). The main reason I got the F450 over the F350 was the wide track axle with its crazy tight turning. The bigger brakes were a nice plus as well.

 

Thanks, this does appear to be studied and documented much less than the SRW 250 vs 350. I'm fascinated by the differences and love to learn about them and understand the why behind them.