Here's what I came up with for setting up the dial indicator. The spring in the indicator is strong enough to hold the push rod in place, which was good news.




Since the noise seemed to radiate the most from cylinder 5 or 6, I started there.

Cyl.5 -
I- .2885 x 1.6 = .4616
E- .297 x 1.6 = .475

Cyl.6 -
I- .2885 x 1.6 = .4616
E- .297 x 1.6 = .475

Cyl.7 -
I- .2882 x 1.6 = .46112
E- .2962 x 1.6 = .47392


Cam is advertised at .461 / .474 lift, so it seems to be right on yet. I think any figure within .001 is acceptable.


These figures are from indicator set to zero at cam "base", then engine rotated slowly to get peak lift at the pushrod. The indicator moved smoothly throughout the whole cam rotation with no noticeable irregularities.

Have four new lifters on order and should get them this week yet. I'll try to call Comp tomorrow and see what they say.

 

I like that setup! I will remember that. And, those are the most consistent readings I've seen. Well done. Doesn't look like there's a problem w/the cam.

 

Just got off the phone with Comp tech department. He suggested a couple things I can do to check things out, which was mainly camshaft related. I did tell him the cam seemed fine and lifters were rotating correctly.

He did mention one thing though, the lifters should be soaked in mineral spirits and blown out with compressed air. There's an anti-rust fluid in them to prevent rust while sitting on the shelf. I thought it was just oil on them. He said that the fluid in them can get pretty sticky if sitting in hot climates and it dries out.

Another thing, which he seemed to be leaning towards is one of the lifters has air stuck inside of it (again mineral spirit bath and compressed air will fix that).

I have never heard of soaking new lifters in mineral spirits, only oil. I told him that I don't soak, but prime, and he thought that was just fine.

So, a couple things to look for and got four new lifters today...just in case.

 

Hope it works!

 

Some exhaust leaks can sound like a ticking noise......

 

Things to check
Is the cam walking into the timing cover? (missing thrust plate)
weak/broken valvesprings

 

Exhaust is quiet, no leaks. You can hear the noise radiate from the inside of the head.


All good there too.

 

Four new lifters. Soaked in mineral spirits, blew out, then soaked in oil and plunged them to get all the air out. Noise still there, but changed slightly.

Just got off the phone with Comp tech support again. Explained everything to him from the first engine, to now. He's stuck. He's going to check with a couple of other people there and get back to me.

We went through wear patterns, lubes, rocker geometry, pre-load, push rod length, everything. Hopefully somebody can nail this. This is the fourth time I've had the engine apart for this problem. I'm tired, don't know how much more trying things I can do that has been done several times.

I may have to pull the cam, take it to work and check it with the Romer arm. Really hate to pull it if I don't have to though.
This is starting to get on my nerves now. New engine in truck that I can't drive....

 

I know of a different make motor where cam lobs where made not where they should have been.
I can remember if it was 1 lobe or more but it was not in line with the lifter bore and it caused issues I just cant remember what the issue was now.


If this was the case with you the lobe could be hitting a cam bearing or the block some place?


I don't remember are you using the same rods, crank & pistons? If so do you think a piston skirt is hitting a crank weight or rod bolts hitting someplace on the block like can happen with stroker motors?


I know if is kind of out there but just trying to think outside the box.
Bad flex plate?
Dave ----

 

Different rotating assembly. That really stumped them when I told them about the same problem with two completely different engines. For the new one, when the pistons were in, I checked clearance of skirt to crank because of the different style pistons used. Plenty of room there.

Checked rocker tip to valve tip swipe pattern, looks good. Checked lifter preload and that's in spec.

Have to wait until Monday to see what the next step is.

One thing they did say is that I might have to go to adjustable rockers. Let's hope it doesn't come down to that, but it does...

 

Man, that is a bummer! And, a lot of work.

 

The cam lift is that much where you might be running out of rocker arm slot?
I would think you might be able to see that if you were to pull of each rocker and check.
Could the rocker(s) be hitting the retainers and causing the noise? Again I would think you could see this if looking for it.
Good luck
Dave ----

 

What I think you should check is the adjustment of the valve train. This is what they are hinting at when they said you might have to go to an adjustable valve train.

Your valve train is not adjustable, but you need to go in there and pretend it is and check it.

Turn the engine around by hand till # 1 cylinder is firing and both valves are closed on #1. Loosen the bolts that hold the rockers down, and then grab the pushrod and wiggle it around while slowly tightening the rocker bolt. As soon as the play in the pushrod goes away stop. Stare at your ratchet on the rocker bolt and then tighten it till it stops, making a mental note of how many turns it takes before it stops.

You should be 3/4 to 1 turn. 1/2 turn is borderline not sending the plunger in the lifter very far down into the lifter, and can cause ticking. Over 1 turn is sending the plunger in the lifter almost too far down into the lifter, and this can cause the valve to hang open and not close all the way, causing the engine to run rough and have a miss.

After doing #1 you need to turn the engine by the crankshaft 1/4 turn and do the next cylinder in the firing order, make sure the valves are shut before you check the valve lash.

If you find some of them are not in spec, the guy that did your head work messed up. When he does a valve job on a Ford, the height of the valve changes, and he needs to grind some material off the tip of the valve, there is a spec on how high the valve stem should sit above the valve guide when he is finished.

If you find some of them out of spec, you can buy different length pushrods. If they are too tight, sometimes you can get away with putting small shims under the rocker pedestals.

Edit: You are working on a six, so turn the crankshaft 1/3 of a turn. So you will turn the crank around 2 times to get all the cylinders in the firing order.

 

Does not look like you have dual valve springs, but....if you do...
You might have a broken inner spring????
I also noticed that you have rotators on the exhaust.
They will float your valves if you are going for high rpm.
Try getting rid of the rotators and their springs, and see what happens.
Valve lift might be calculated for regular retainers...not rotators...
Just grasping at straws...
The ticking would irritate me also...

 

To answer a few questions.

Added - The guy at Comp and I talked about the sounds being made too. He asked if it was a sewing machine sound or an actual tick. I told him there is a sewing machine sound PLUS a tick. The sewing machine sound is fine...and I kinda like the way it sounds...harmony. It's this tick, tick, tick that's driving me nuts.

This engine runs really nice. No shaking, no misfiring, nothing, really smooth. When it's idling, I've stopped and just listened to how good it's running. It's such a change from the old engine that it's almost unbelievable that a Windsor can run that good.


FuzzFace2 - Here's the lift for stock cam, and new one, at the valve:

Stock
I - .4448
E - .452

New cam
I - .461
E - .474

Only about .020 difference. I did check the rockers and sleds when I had things apart yesterday and could not see any places where things were hitting or rubbing. Also checked the pushrod and valve sides of the rockers too, and no notable signs of any interference. What really has me wondering is this noise is only on bank two. Bank one is really quiet.


Franklin2 - The guy at Comp and I talked about preload, but he was going to be gone by the time I got the figures to him. He said optimum preload for the Comp lifters is .043. I broke out the dial indicator and checked to see what mine was.

I have .072 on the intake side and .068 on the exhaust side...a little too much. He did say I could be just over .100 and be good yet...that statement has me wondering though.

Here's a bit from their website: "Order a pushrod that is .020"-.070" longer than the pushrod length at zero lash to ensure the proper pre-load".

Now, in another article, they kind of contradict themselves with this: "Through various testing we have discovered that lifter preload should be set between .030” to .040” or ½ to ¾ a turn of the wrench past zero for optimal performance".

So, with their first statement, I'm good, maybe a bit too much, but good. For their second statement, I'm way out of spec.

I'm going to locate some .020" material and make a couple of rocker shims for bank 2. A .020" shim will net me .032" less lifter preload. If this works out and solves the noises I have, I'm going to order custom length pushrods.

Also, I checked out the swipe pattern on the tips of the valves and it looked as good as you can expect with stock, mass produced non-adjustable rockers.


Timehunter - I would like to keep the rotators if possible. The springs are single and seem to be fine yet, no broken or noticeably soft ones. I only plan on taking this engine up to 4000-4500 rpms. I do have another set of non-rotators and springs if they need to be put on.

Going to try the shims first and see what happens.


I really hate to open this can of worms, but if shimming helps bank two, I'm going to dig into bank one and see what everything is set at. My guess is it's closer to specs than bank two.


Some personal thoughts on this:
For the pre-load, when I pulled out the four "questionable" lifters, I put a pushrod in them on the bench and tried to push the plunger in. No luck. Thinking now, if they can't be pushed in, how is this going to effect the valvetrain? Hang a valve open when it's supposed to be closed? What else?

On to why only bank two is giving me problems...
Did my machinist have to cut a couple of thousand more off bank two compared to bank one? Is it just enough where bank one is fine and not two?
Did they get machined just a bit different from factory and the problems are now showing after being milled again?
Did one head need the valve seats cut a little more than the other?

I'm thinking there's so many variables, I'll never find out the exact cause....maybe if I pulled the heads and took the Romer arm to them...but what is that going to tell me?