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From everything I know about performance in V8 engines, and the agricultural economy, it sounds to me like E85 is a win not because it saves you money, but rather because you gain power, help the national economy instead of helping OPEC, and cost-wise it comes out a wash because the price vs. MPGs lost works out in the math.
In short, you're not saving or losing money either way. But you ARE gaining horsepower and helping America.
It's a shame there aren't more stations around that sell it. In my geographic area (25 mile radius) there is one station.
The U.S. purchases foreign oil not because it has to, but because it wants to (and that's as close to political as I'm going to get). We have the largest oil reserves of just about any other country. E85 does not create more horsepower. Because it has a higher octane rating it does allow engineers to design more powerful engines. If your engine doesn't knock using 87 octane regular gasoline, you aren't going to gain anything by purchasing any type of higher octane fuel. Well, you'll gain a lighter wallet which might translate into more speed.
It's been established that adding ethanol to gasoline during winter reduces carbon emissions, so that has been a common practice for decades. Pretty much everybody's mileage decreases in the winter for this reason.
Important to note:
It is best not to alternate repeatedly between gasoline and E85. If you do
switch fuels, it is recommended that you add as much fuel as
possible—at least half a tank. Do not add less than five gallons (18.9L)
when refueling. You should drive the vehicle immediately after refueling
for at least 5 miles (8 km) to allow the vehicle to adapt to the change in
ethanol concentration.
If you exclusively use E85 fuel, it is recommended to fill the fuel tank
with regular unleaded gasoline at each scheduled oil change.
The U.S. purchases foreign oil not because it has to, but because it wants to (and that's as close to political as I'm going to get). We have the largest oil reserves of just about any other country. E85 does not create more horsepower. Because it has a higher octane rating it does allow engineers to design more powerful engines. If your engine doesn't knock using 87 octane regular gasoline, you aren't going to gain anything by purchasing any type of higher octane fuel. Well, you'll gain a lighter wallet which might translate into more speed.
It's been established that adding ethanol to gasoline during winter reduces carbon emissions, so that has been a common practice for decades. Pretty much everybody's mileage decreases in the winter for this reason.
Important to note:
It is best not to alternate repeatedly between gasoline and E85. If you do
switch fuels, it is recommended that you add as much fuel as
possible—at least half a tank. Do not add less than five gallons (18.9L)
when refueling. You should drive the vehicle immediately after refueling
for at least 5 miles (8 km) to allow the vehicle to adapt to the change in
ethanol concentration.
If you exclusively use E85 fuel, it is recommended to fill the fuel tank
with regular unleaded gasoline at each scheduled oil change.
politics completely aside:
you do indeed gain horsepower and torque by using e85. i'll offer a snip-it from the 2010 F150 brochure:
the 25lb-ft is very noticeable when using the fuel too. most of the bump comes in just off idle and at very low throttle angles. it is enough of a bump in the torque curve that the transmission has to recalibrate the shift strategy. the thought process used above simply doesn't apply to the vehicles currently being made. most of them advance the timing as far as possible while staying out of knock and do so on a continual basis to optimize fuel economy. so there are some gains to be had just by using premium, but it won't be very noticeable. e85 on the other hand allows for a very aggressive timing curve, which is why you get such a power increase by using it.
also, your fuel mileage tanks in the winter, but not because of the ethanol. they use a different formulation to increase volatility to aid in cold starting. this holds true regardless of how much ethanol is in the fuel. the fuel companies like making winter gas because it is cheaper, but the EPA only allows it within a set time period because of emissions. there is a ton of info out there on the topic, but here's the first good one that google found: http://newsroom.aaa.com/2013/06/what...lend-gasoline/
The real benefit to using ethanol in the winter is because it will absorb moisture in the fuel system caused by condensation.
as for switching back and forth, yes they say not to alternate often, but I've done it quite a bit without any ill effects, other than the odd shifting behavior when you first switch.
the mileage doesn't seem to drop off quite as badly as the snip-it above shows either. in general use on the project I usually get 13.5ish mpg with e85 and 16.5ish mpg with e10. I don't think I've ever used pure gas, so i'll let that go unspoken for. on an long interstate run, I've gotten pretty close to the 18mpg it is rated for with e10, but I've also gotten 15.5mpg on e85 on the same trip (different day).
the best compromise for me has been e30. the mileage is within about 1mpg of what you get with e10, but the power is noticeably better, much like you get with the e85.
there's just so much myth about ethanol that gets repeated over and over again, it simply astounds me.
you do indeed gain horsepower and torque by using e85. i'll offer a snip-it from the 2010 F150 brochure:
the 25lb-ft is very noticeable when using the fuel too. most of the bump comes in just off idle and at very low throttle angles. it is enough of a bump in the torque curve that the transmission has to recalibrate the shift strategy. the thought process used above simply doesn't apply to the vehicles currently being made. most of them advance the timing as far as possible while staying out of knock and do so on a continual basis to optimize fuel economy. so there are some gains to be had just by using premium, but it won't be very noticeable. e85 on the other hand allows for a very aggressive timing curve, which is why you get such a power increase by using it.
also, your fuel mileage tanks in the winter, but not because of the ethanol. they use a different formulation to increase volatility to aid in cold starting. this holds true regardless of how much ethanol is in the fuel. the fuel companies like making winter gas because it is cheaper, but the EPA only allows it within a set time period because of emissions. there is a ton of info out there on the topic, but here's the first good one that google found: What is the Difference between Summer- and Winter-Blend Gasoline? | AAA NewsRoom
The real benefit to using ethanol in the winter is because it will absorb moisture in the fuel system caused by condensation.
as for switching back and forth, yes they say not to alternate often, but I've done it quite a bit without any ill effects, other than the odd shifting behavior when you first switch.
the mileage doesn't seem to drop off quite as badly as the snip-it above shows either. in general use on the project I usually get 13.5ish mpg with e85 and 16.5ish mpg with e10. I don't think I've ever used pure gas, so i'll let that go unspoken for. on an long interstate run, I've gotten pretty close to the 18mpg it is rated for with e10, but I've also gotten 15.5mpg on e85 on the same trip (different day).
the best compromise for me has been e30. the mileage is within about 1mpg of what you get with e10, but the power is noticeably better, much like you get with the e85.
there's just so much myth about ethanol that gets repeated over and over again, it simply astounds me.
I understand where you are coming from, but what you are supporting is exactly what I said. It's not the fuel producing more power, it is the higher octane of the fuel allowing the engineers to design higher horsepower engines. That is the point I'm trying to make.
My truck is Flex Fuel capable. It only has one horsepower and torque rating. If my horsepower and torque were to change depending on whether I was burning gasoline or E85 fuel, there would have to be two horsepower/torque ratings. And what if I decided to start burning LPG? Does my horsepower and torque rating change yet again?
Many people mistakenly believe that higher octane fuel will deliver more horsepower and the gas companies encourage this thinking so that folks will buy the more expensive gas at the pump. They say you'll get better performance and more horsepower using their top-of-the-line (and incidentally most expensive) high octane gas. But if you read the fine print, their claims center around a cleaner running engine; supposedly because the more expensive gas has better cleaning additives, etc.
I simply want folks to realize that higher octane does not higher horsepower make. It allows higher horsepower, higher compression engines to run without detonation. That's it.
Thats not exactly true though. It's the same engine and nothing changes (mechanically) except the fuel
The higher octane fuel allows the same engine to produce more power by way of more ignition timing. And more ignition timing means more power.
These engines are optimized for 87 octane, and marginal for e85, yet despite of that they make more power on e85. Running e85 at 10:1 compression os akin to running gas at 6:1. If they would optimize for e85 the power spread would grow and the economy spread would shrink, but with e85 not being everywhere they simply can't do that.
Even though it isn't being advertised, I'm sure you flex fuel car makes more power on e85, and would make less on LPG. It's all in the way the pcm handles the different fuels. If it advances the timing, there's a good chance you are going to make more power and lose less mpg. If it doesn't then power wont go up and economy will really tank.
I simply want folks to realize that higher octane does not higher horsepower make. It allows higher horsepower, higher compression engines to run without detonation. That's it.
Mike Harrison, the chief engineer of Ford's V8 engine program would disagree with that.
I see the problem - we have to separate the fuel from the octane in this discussion. I now understand that E85 fuel (being 85% alcohol) burns hotter and produces more horsepower. The higher octane of E85 doesn't in itself produce more power, it simply allows the hotter burn without detonation.
My mistake was believing the gasoline only engines operate at a lower compression ratio than the E85 engines.
So would the consensus be that we should be burning E85 when pulling a camper?
I see the problem - we have to separate the fuel from the octane in this discussion. I now understand that E85 fuel (being 85% alcohol) burns hotter and produces more horsepower. The higher octane of E85 doesn't in itself produce more power, it simply allows the hotter burn without detonation.
My mistake was believing the gasoline only engines operate at a lower compression ratio than the E85 engines.
So would the consensus be that we should be burning E85 when pulling a camper?
It's octane, Mike Harrison said the same in the 6.2L Q&A thread. Should have posted this before:
Originally Posted by mike-v8ford
The Superduty version is SAE rated on 87 octane (R+M/2) so it is directly comparable to the 401 hp for the raptor. You will pick up power on the 6.2L Superduty with 91 (R+M/2).
I have noticed that my truck is hard to start in the mornings on the E85 fuel. Yesterday it was 40 degrees outside and the truck cranked through two cycles before it fired. It's never done that on gasoline.
I do notice the extra power. I climb a long hill at 55 MPH when I leave work each day. On gas, the truck will always downshift to 5th gear with the cruise set to maintain 55. On E85, it'll stay in 6th and climb the entire hill. Impressive to me that I can actually see the direct results of the extra torque and horsepower.
My mileage is around 12 right now on the E85. I was getting 15 on 87 octane gasoline.
Price here locally is 50 cents per gallon less than 87 octane gas, but there are only a handful of stations that carry it within a 40 mile radius. I've been running 87 all summer and fall but now I'm using E85 to see how I like it.
I have a MPT 93 Race tune on my 5.0. 93 octane is close to and over $3 in my area, E85 was $1.91 last Sunday. Needless to say, this Friday, it's getting a tankful of E85. Rumor has it, I'll get quite a boost in power, but lose some mileage. Price delta may be very well worth it. We'll see.
Have had a handful of flex-fuel pickups over the past 15 yrs. The first was a '00 Ranger 3.0 up to my current '13 F150 XLT 3.7. Have always figured 15-20% drop in mileage when comparing prices. Will go with E-85 if close, prefer to support the farmers rather than opec. Curiously I had a '03 S-10 four banger 5-speed manual that actually got about the same mileage no matter what fuel I put in. I think the extra punch it got from the E-85 was what the under powered 4 cyl needed.
Did the E85 thing over the weekend like planned. Ya, definite increase in power, and yep, mileage dropped down to 14.3 on the expressway at 73 mph. I was getting around 18.8.
Really haven't sat down and figured if the lower cost is worth it as far as money. But for the fun factor, OH YEAH!
Noticed a station in town today selling E85 for $1.56 and e10 for $1.99 ... That kind of a spread will make the numbers work.
Our local station here is selling e30 for $0.20 cheaper than e10. At that price spread and a cost of 1 mpg, you'd be a fool not to use e30 if you are flex fuel capable.
E30 gets you about 90% of the horsepower gain of e85 and about 90% of the fuel economy of e10 ... At less in my experiences... I miss e30 at work. I got so used to the way it drove it feels like a complete dog now that we have gone to e10.
