BDV,

I did not mean to offend with what I said.

Since it appears that I might have, let me clarify from where I'm coming.

My belief is based on the fact that God sacrificed his only son Jesus for our sins. To receive the reward of salvation, you have to accept this sacrifice for what it is, a gift. No amount of deeds, good intentions or regret for misdeeds can compare to this sacrifice and therefore to not accept Gods gift, is to turn your back on God.

Once you have turned you back on God, using another gift he has given us (free will) and chosen to refuse salvation. The matter is not in Gods hands, but in yours.

I do not worship God out of fear of retribution; I do so because I am thankful for the gifts he has given me. If I were to take all of the good I have done, all of the good will and good intentions in my life, added them all together, it couldn't even begin to equal the blessings that have been bestowed on me (my wife, the kids, the grandkids - my job, my health, my friends, not to mention all of the material things in my life). Suffice it to say that the list is far too long to waste bandwidth here. This is why I am grateful and choose to worship God.

As far as the large ornate churches are concerned, these are place that people build to honor God and where they go to worship and give thanks for the many things God has done for them. This, in part is their way of showing their appreciation for Gods gifts. Personally, I choose to honor God through other means hence my lack of affiliation with any specific church.

All in all, my beliefs are my own. I do not want to push them on anyone yet, I am more then willing to share them with anyone who is interested. I have always felt that the "Bible Thumpers" quite often do more harm than good - that is why I try to share my faith through my actions, not through intimidation.

If what I said earlier offended you, I apologize - If not, I appreciate the opportunity to share a little of myself and hopefully put into perspective where I was coming from with my post.

 

I disagree about the large churches. While they can be built on good ideas, many become corrupt business-like organizations rather than worship areas. Places where the employees kids get free schooling and your offerings generally expand they already large church. Yes, in the olden days their was a reverence in the elaborate cathedrals (And don't look incredible by the way), but today that's not too prevelent. Money is different today than it was when those old churches were built. Many churches consider growth almost a contest, bigger is better. Sure, more people living right is better, but large churches tend to lose sight of that orginal mission as they enjoy getting larger and richer, IMO.

 

I agree with garymake....as far as the reason to worship God is because of who He is and what He has done. And he is right in saying that no amount of good deeds or right living will "earn" you a spot in heaven. Christ said, " I am the way and the truth and the life and no man comes to the Father except thru me. " He also says that if you believe in your heart and confess with you mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord and was raised from the dead then you shall be saved." this is the only way to heaven....there is not an alternative according to God's word(the absolute truth).

as far as the comments about Southern Baptist....I am kind of offended by it because such a statement is a blanket sterotype. I know many ministers of different faiths and God has blessed each differently. Some Baptist drive nice cars and have nice houses, but then so do some other leaders of their faith. Some churchs have lost the purpose behind what they do, and for that God will judge them (and severly). I don't always agree with what Baptist may do or what the convention does, but the main reason why I am Baptist is due to doctern. Please don't paint all ministers of a particular faith one way because you have witnessed the lifestyle of one minister. And please don't assume that because you live a good life that God will judge you less and allow you to enter the kingdom of heaven....there is only one way and it is thru Him.

 

Don't consider what I am about to say a challenge to your faith.

I think the idea that we must be grateful for God's sacrifice of his only son, and show it through reverence and worship, touches on the basic tenet I described before. It basically says to the masses: "It doesn't matter if you live properly and treat people well. If you do not physically worship God in the manners which are dictated in the Bible, (which we wrote and translated), you will suffer dire consequences." Maybe that sounds round and simplistic by today's standards, but put yourself in the Dark Ages, or earlier. THAT WOULD SCARE YOU, especially if your faith in God was strong. It would keep you in church every Sunday, and it would compel you to pay your tithe to the church.
I won't take anything away from the good people that do great things for humanity in the name of God and the church. One reason is as good as another, so I believe that there is no difference between praying in a church and volunteering in a soup kitchen in the eyes of God. Man built the church, man set up the institutions, the hierarchies, man crafted the dogma, man murdered and pillaged and subjugated to spread the belief. Man wrote the Bible. Man rewrote the Bible. Men have profited nicely throughout the ages from the system.
I'll place my bet that God is judging me fairly and that he will understand my contentions with the belief systems created in his name. After all, he created me, right?
BDV

 

Consider this. The bible claims to be physically written by men, yet inspired by God. The translation actually means "God-breathed". If men wrote the book without God's hand over the words, then why would they claim it was "God's Word" or that what they wrote was "God-breathed"? Yes, there are many lousy translations out there, namely the PC ones removing gender, ect. I think the King James is accurate though. The authenticity of the bible is a whole other argument, but you gotta admit, it's an incredible piece of literature, even if you don't trust it. For example, the koran and book of mormon simply don't demostrate the kind of workmanship in the bible.
Basically the idea is that if you do accept God, you will WANT to live right, that God will work through you. I understand your perspective. I sometimes wonder myself, thinking about some of the parts of Al Pacino's rant near the end of Devil's Advocate, "Why did God set the rules in opposition to eachother?" Yet I have decided through logic, and of course faith, that I will trust God. I can not prove that God exists, but there is more evidence to suggest a creator than to explain evolution. Where are the missing links? Millions of years of civilization, and no missing links? The best they've ever done is form carbon from a nearly impossible reaction. A building block of life...yes. Anything close to a life, nope. It would be hard to convince you of Christ, but truely, if you think about it, God is real. Little things can be puzzling to our geniuses, like explaining why the planets revolve around the sun without slowly pulling away, just staying in harmony the same distance. We still can't explain that. Just some things to think about.

 

Bronco, that was an excellent point of view, thank you.
I am not contending that God doesn't exist. You're absolutely right; when it comes right down to it, neither side can prove irrefutably that the other is wrong. I think evolution and creation are both very powerful arguments that support well documented and researched theories. But nothing changes the fact that they are both theories...
The bible as a piece of literature stands alone in its scope and insight, and the lessons contained in it's pages have stood the test of time; most are still relevant today. Unfortunately, its' stories and teachings have been twisted, rewritten, misinterpreted, mistranslated (both accidentally and intentionally), and exploited to produce results ranging from inspiration of the downtrodden to justifiction for genocide.
I have read the bible. Not cover to cover, but I have read enough of it to say that while it is compelling, it's still just a collections of stories. I can't accept it as fact.
Check out this website. It's kinda interesting.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com
BDV

 

BDV,
Sounds like you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. What seems to chap your rear end about "Religion" and "The Church" could be said of every other institution. (Government,schools, military, marriage, etc.) What shall we do then?
You seem content that God will judge you "fairly". By that I assume you define "fair" as you or I might see it. IF you acknowledge there is in fact a (single) God, then by definition whatever and however he judges will be fair. After all, he would be God, they are His rules, and we don't (or wouldn't) get to negotiate changes to His rules. So.... what if "religion" is an imperfect attempt by man to "quantify" God, yet God's truth is not altered by all the imperfection surrounding it vis-a-vis Religion? I guess what I'm getting at is this: if there is a God, wouldn't you want to try and figure out what He's all about? That is to say; what if the Bible IS correct? Then what you might think is "fair" would be what God says is wrong.
please note: I am NOT preaching to you; just asking from a logic / rational standpoint. I have had similar discussions with agnostic and atheist friends and appreciate hearing their/your views.
Thanks for indulging me!

 

BDV, your questions/statements about faith, love, worship, God, religion, corruption in the church, money, judgement, salvation, prayer, works and deeds are all valid questions. All the answers/issues you seek are in the bible. Approach it with an open mind. Cast away all the preconceived notions of what you think the bible is about or if has been corrupted through history. If you truly seek, you shall find. Jesus says to come to Him as a little child.

I have read the bible. There are many chapters I have read many times. But no matter how many times I read over one particular chaper or verse, God still has something new for me. I encourage you to read more of the bible. I don't believe anybody can lay claim to understand all thats in the bible. Bible scholars and those strong in their faith and study the bible can certianly help you and others who seek and wish to know the truth. Nobody knows or can give us all the answers. God is too big to know everything about Him or why He does things the way He does. God speaks to us through His word. God will reveal Himself to us and His plan for our lives to those who "first seek the kingdom of God". That's where faith comes in. And you do have some faith. You have the faith that God will judge you fairly. Thats true. If He didn't, He wouldn't be a just God.

But ask yourself, to what standards will God judge? Which would be the perfect standard in which God should judge? Our standard or Gods standard? Would God judge each indivdual according to his/her own standard of living? There has to be a uniform standard or it wouldn't be fair. Since God is perfect, then Heaven, which He created, is also perfect. Would God allow imperfection to enter into that which is perfect? Are we that good? The bible tells us. Matt. 5:20 "But I warn you, unless your goodness is greater than that of the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders, you can't get into the Kingdom of heaven". Living bible.

Next question. Can we meet those standards? Answer, no. For the bible says that "all have sined and fallen short of the glory of God". Well, what's man to do? Man is not good enough by himself. No amout of good deeds or self righteous living will buy a ticked into heaven. We know this because this is what God says. But there is hope. John 3:16,17 For God so loved the world He sent His only son so that whoever belives in Him shall not parish, but have everlasting life. God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it.

Something to think about.

 

I'm surprised there aren't many people posting in backing of BVD's view.

 

I'll be straight.
I don't think that the christians are right about god. In fact, I don't think that any religion is right about god. Every notion of a creator was conceived out of greed and powerlust.
I don't think that the events in the bible actually happened the way that they are described. Ever play the phone game in Kindergarten? Ever tell a lie to influence the actions of others?
The bible is so full of hatred and vengeance by God that it contradicts the contention that God is loving and caring. It seems like his character is full of animosity for man for not worshipping him, not love and tolerance and understanding.

Free will is a joke; it's the easiest and best way for somebody to justify all the suffering in the world.
Is god in control over the events and actions happening on this planet? "Of course he is." Why do people rape children and murder millions of people? "Hey, it's free will, man."

Did Jesus live? Probably. Was he the son of God? I don't think he was. Rasputin did the same types of things Christ did, except he did them under far more scrutiny by people who were literate and educated. Was he the son of God? I think both were con men.

Does God exist? Who knows. Who's Who? Not you.

Have all the faith you want in whatever you want. Worship the Cat in the Hat for all I care. The only reason I have any contention with christians is that they have managed to influence laws and public policies based upon their morals and beliefs in what is right and wrong, in their favor. Are christian morals bad? No, but they are judgemental and intolerant, for the most part. Gay marriage, Abortion and Interracial Marriage were made illegal at one point in time in the name of God, without regard to the morals of others. Why should Gay Marriage and abortion be outlawed? "Because God doesn't like it." Ask any opponent of gay marriage or abortion and if that isn't their first answer, it'll be their second.

There, I said it.

BDV

 

BDV, while at first I agreed with you on most points, now I msut deisagree, but I will get to you next.

First, Fish man..
You accuse me of stereotyping the baptist religion? NO, wrong incorrect, reread what I said, SOUTHERN BAPTIST. That is its own re;ligion in and of itself consisting of two similiar churces.
This religion is differant than baptist, or Yankee Baptist or whatever other type of baptist, protestant, Catholic religion you can think of. I am not generalizeng either, being that I live in the south, I can recognize the differance between Baptist and Southern Baptist. My Gal, she is Baptist, the minister I refer to, Southern Baptist HUGE DIFFERANCE!! And I did not complain about Ministers of differant faiths, only SOUTHERN BAPTIST. I HATE, DETEST TRUE SOUTHERN BAPTISTS. There methods, beliefs, small time political influence. Belief that they should influence everyone's life with or without these people's personal consent. Did you know that civilians where I can live CANNOT purchase alcohol ANYWHERE? I can because I am in the military.
In most dry counties, it is because the local governments say no alcohol. Here, in Ark, there are no dry counties. The problem is is theat these wonderful Southern Baptist churches buy up ALL the alcohol licenses for their counties. Therefore, There is no way for anywhere else to buy alcohol....tell me is that right? And this is only the tip of the iceberg.

And, I never said anyhting about saying that if you live a good life God will judge you less. I want to knwo where you are reading some of this stuff? The reason I do not like the way Southern Baptsit Ministers live, is because how can you devote your life to God when you surround yourself with material items? You cannot, If you have kids and a wife, and something happens what are you gonna do? Let happen what God wishes to happen, or try and intervene and save your loved ones? Come on, I want to see what a minister in that situation would do if some one where to break into their house with the intent of killing their wife and kids. Can guarantee they would not be a minister after that, as they would not make the right decision, nor any parent in that situation would.



BDV, sorry man, but you are starting to sound a bit like an aetheist now. And blaming His existance or non-existance, but to each his own so...I am not goin to trash you like this person above who twisted my words.

Anyways, just so everyone knows, I base my faith in two things, The things I have been given in my life, none of which do I desserve. And the Bible, mainly the Book of Revelations, which has many predictions I believe have already happened, and a few to happen in the near future. (Hopefully not so near as I will not be able to finish my Ford.)

Jimmy Dean.


p.s. Sorry for the trash talking MODS, please have mercy

 

When does life begin? If you say at conception, then you really aren't going to win an argument for abortion. Anything with ten fingers, ten toes, blood flowing, brainwaves travelling, and gender is alive. I don't care if it's small, if I step on an ant, I have killed an ant. If the fact that a fetus is inside someone means it's not alive (and therefore cannot be killed), then what is? It's either alive or not alive, and anything that is alive and is caused to cease to exist has been killed. The methods mainly conisist of suction and dismemberment, depending on the age of the baby. What's the difference between a premature 7-month baby, and a 7-month old fetus? Simple, location. One can be legally terminated, yet one will be put on expensive life support. Abortion also has consequenses for the mother, and even gives many nieve younger girls the impression that there is an easy way out of getting pregnant.
Legally, gay marriage will probably progress. However, I am opposed to it. It is not genetic, there is no evidence supporting that, but some against it. Namely that there have been cases where identical twins turn out one straight and one gay. I consider it a self-perception disorder, similar to a man thinking he was supposed to be born a woman (transvestite), or anorexia. STD's are exponentially more prevelent in gays due simply to promiscuity and orgies. 1500 people died last year in the act of sodomy, suffocation in orgies being a common cause. I find the gay lifestyle unnatural, contrary to common sense and using a loophole in the human anatomy.

 

If God had a hand in the 9/11 attacks it would have been 200 billion locust flying into the Trade Towers instead of two jetliners.