whistler,

I appreciate your point of view. It has made me think, brought to light some things I had not considered and overall provided us both with a good exchange of ideas.

It's things like this that make the Web worthwhile IMHO.

Thanks!

 

Maybe 9/11 was because of oil families fighting, then whose side is God on?

 

What a foolish way to think about it.

If the 9/11 attacks were God's punishment for our indiscretions, why didn't more people die? Why now are more people dying for those actions overseas?
C'mon, god has got to be more creative than that. And to blame tragic events on our so-called "lack of morals" is so myopic it gives me a headache.
When Columbine happened in my city, all the churches around town used it as a recruitment ploy, citing the incident as an example of "moral decay". Morals had nothing to do with that.
Moving on, condoms in schools is almost as good an idea as free needle programs for junkies. Education of our youth has proven unsuccessful when it comes to sex and drugs, and so has religious intervention and government legislation, so where do we go from there? At least when teachers hand out condoms they are DOING SOMETHING besides telling the kids it is wrong and that god thinks they're sinners.
All religion was good for was giving people a reson to feel guilty about their actions, as judged by others. Now that people think for themselves, religion has become obsolete, and whether God exists or not, until he shows up and lays the smack down in person, proving the christians right, religion isn't going to influence anybody.
So you can spout all you want about how God in Schools can fix our society's problems. You're blowing dust in the wind. No amount of bible education and propaganda will ever change the way people act. It's a tough pill for alot of people to swallow, but only ACTION produces REACTION. The threat of damnation isn't good enough for anybody anymore; even priests prove that when they fondle little boys.
BDV

 

God never said he will protect our BODIES, he will protect our SOULS. He let His Son die. When something tragic happens, people want to blame God or Satan, why? Why can't people see that human nature is not always good? I'm not saying God doesn't protect us naturally or won't, that's up to him....I'm just saying that he never said he would make it to where we didn't have to suffer that ailments of living on this earth. He has obviously blessed this country, not for our sake but for HIs will...

Another thing, these people who commit these terrorist acts, foreign or not, were raised to hate. IMO, the reason Colombined happened was because two children didn't get any supervision or discipline. How could parents not know that there were dozens of bombs in the basement? That the kids were making videos of hate? Some/most of you might not agree with me, but I feel since todays children are raised in the daycare and not by mom being home with them is a major problem. I wouldn't trade anything for my mom not working and being there for my brother, sister and I, I loved my childhood.

 

Many want to find the reason God "allowed" the 9\11 attacks to happen. In short, God didn't cause the attacks to happen, He knew they were going to happen, and watched them happen, and allowed them to happen, but did not cause them to happen. Man, and his free will, is responsible. We could not live in a world where we have free will to do good but not bad. We have complete freedom. And many of the world's residents abuse that freedom to no end. Sure, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, but the concept lost on many is that one of those two men are wrong, dead wrong. Today many want to pretend that everything is an opinion. If one man says a wall is blue, and another that the wall is green, well, they just have difference in opinion. Never mind what the color IS. This is the attitude among many today. To sum up, with the gift of free will man can and will cause a 9\11, and is therefore responsible. Terrorists cause terrorism, they are wrong in their cause and religion.

 

Does God take sides?

Who are we, that God should should be on our side because of our righteousness? Who can lay claim, be it an indivdual or nation, to be so good that God should/would agree with us on any matter? Has man risen to Gods level or has God bowed down to mans?

Better that man should strive to be on Gods side. Man should be in agreement with God, not the other way around.

I agree with big_daddy_velvet on one thing. Religion for the most part isn't going to influence anyone. Religion in itself isn't going to solve our problems. There is only one way.

Turning from our wicked ways, admitting we are sinners, asking God for forgiveness, and accepting Jesus as our savior is the place to start. Once we accept Jesus, we receive the holy spirit. Then it's the spirits influence on our lives that will change how we act and feel towards others. We are no longer the person we use to be be. We become a new creation. This is what is described as being born again. It's through the spirit the God reveals Himself and His will to us. All we have to do is seek the truth and He will reveal it it us. To those who have experienced it know what it is. To the world, it sounds foolish.

There is a war going on for the souls of man. Good verses evil. A spiritual battle that we cannot see, but we can see and feel the effects. God, who created us, wants us to be with Him for all eternity. Satan wants to destroy us. So we have our choices and there are only two. Heaven or hell. And when God does show up to lay the smack down on the devil, it won't be to prove the chrisitans right. When Jesus returns it will be to gather his church, and it will prove His righteousness for He is faithfull and true to His word. And when that time comes and we find ourselves on the wrong side, it will be too late to change. Better we make our choice now. "Choose this day whom you will serve". Don't wait for tomarrow because tomarrow may not come.

We can believe in the truth of His word or believe and fall for the lies of the devil. How can we know the difference? By seeking the truth and reading our bible. And if we don't believe in either one, then how can life have any meaning?

 

Well said dtpatt2, broncomtr and daily drive!

Excellent points all...

BDV,

Please think long and hard about the decisions you make (especially decisions of this magnitude) and make sure that you are making them for the right reasons.

 

2 Chron 7:14 " if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

well put daily driver!!

 

The only way for us to teach the generations under us is not to tell them what to and what not to do, but to show them. Our generations have alot of bad habits morally and physically. We need to stop them and show the young ones how to live properly. Only way to do it. I have had sex before marriage, and I like it...go figure....and it IS wrong, granted I am not goin to stop. However, I have only had sex with two people, one was a mistake, the other is my future wife....for life. I plan on having our children know this. To show them that it is for the better to be monogomous. You do not have to go out and screw anyhting with a skirt on it. I try to live as morally correct as I can, I know I am not perfect, nor do I strive to be, but I do strive to be better than what I am now. And by my doing so, and my gal doing so, I hope it will rub off on our future children. and I only hope that they will follow, and that God may see them in good light.
The only way for us to teach the next generation is to do it corrrect ourselves. The best thing to do is to not let them see it. Quite frankly temptation is a bitch. If you let a young man taste the forbidden fruit, they are not going to be satisfied with that one time. If you do not let them taste it, they do not know what they are missing. Back in the day there were obvious consequeses for not being monogomous, besides being a social outcast...Nowadys, the only punishments are medical, disease, kids, what not...society does not give a damn any more. The US is decaying at an incredible rate I am worried, it almost makes me wish to never have kids. If we are to change the world, lets start here on this forum. Who all is willing to change themselves for the better of the next generation? I know I am....to an extent..which is wrong yes, but it is better than nothing.

 

ignorance is bliss, eh?

 

Jimmy Dean you are dead on.

 

Ignorance is bliss BTW. However I am kinda glad i know now, becasue I can do something about it.

"It is better to know and change than to not know and not matter.
And it is worse yet to know and do nothing." --Myself

 

Here's a piece of pulp logic for those who "remind" me that my decision is perilous:
If god loves me, like I have been told, and putting aside all the suffering in the world that doesn't amount to "love" by any definition, and if god knows me as well as I am told that he does, then when my judgement day comes, and I stand before god, who loves me unconditionally yet still judges me, then I have nothing to fear. God will know that even though I didn't put all my faith and all my life into worshiping him, I still lived the best I could and tried my damndest to do the right things in the face of evil and temptation and derision.
I think the idea that we must worship God every day and live by a certain set of rules is an archaic method of control brought about by wealthy and powerful men whose intention was to stay that way; the Church has always been a For-Profit entity. The sheer opulence of the Roman Catholic church is appaling, and so are all the churches being built today with multi-million dollar budgets. I can't understand how the christian churches can preach humility and peity, and then turn around and build gigantic monoliths. Where do they get all that money??? Where does the rest of the money go? To God??
BDV

"Faith is cold as ice. Why are little ones born only to suffer, for the want of immunity or a bowl of rice? Who could hold a price on the heads of the innocent children, if there's some immortal power to control the dice?"- Neil Peart

 

If you want to know the truth about peity? I am Roman Catholic, yes some of our churches are huge, they are called cathedrals. Our priets however, unlike the southern baptist ministers, DO NOT own anything, they live in a not so great house, drive a not so new or expensive car, they do not have much money, what they do have is given to them by us, the parisheners.(spelling)

Now Southern Baptists are a little differant. A friend of mine asked me to help a friend of his move I fot a truck, so ok. I found out he was a Preacher at the Baptist church in town. He was moving from a house next to the church, old, run down, to a House 25 minutes away in a nicer house in a subdivision where the cheapest houses are over 150k. He has a mercedes and a land rover. NOW COME ON!! Thise man is supposed to be devoting his life to God, but he is obviously a little to materialistic if you ask me.

BTW catholic priests live on church grounds and are accesible 24/7, whereas this baptist preacher lived 15 miles away from the church in a house I would be afraid to aproach dressed in anything other than a 3 piece business suit or something.

Back to your main subject.

The reason I keep my faith, is that I have found that I have things in my life that maybe I do not deserve, and I feel that there has to be something more to us than just this. However, alot of my beliefs are borderline, especially for a catholic. I do believe in E.T life, or aliens. which in the roman cath. system, is well frowned upon.

Another thing that I use to show people a more tangible reason for my faith is the Bible, or more particularly the Book of Revelations. In it, you will find John, is having premonitions, visions of the future. In it, he sees things that were not around 50 years ago, much less 100s or even a thousand years ago. You wll find some of these premonitions talk about things to come. Some have come to pass 2 thousand years ago, soem a few hundred, some happened 50 years ago, and some are happening right now. It shows to many similarites for me to not see the truth. we know that the bible is at least 800 years old (Do to referances in political writings from the dark ages and after). So it was written a while back. becasue of the similarities in today's society, it was done with an unnatural foresight. Tis causes me to believe that it is true. No doubts in my mind,

And, I don ot think that God is cruel, but he must know who are the truly faithful. The only true way to see taht is to test them, no matter how large or small of a test. I believe that no matter your religion, if in the end you have led a good life, you will be accepted into Heaven. Whether you are Muslim, Jewish, Cath, Atheist, if you lead a good life and are truly sorry for your sins, even if you have made some major mistakes, but truly wish that you had not, nto for the consequences, jsut because you truly feel what you did was wring, then he will forgive you.

 

I think you understand my perspective, Jimmy Dean, which is cool.
I have no desire to condemn a person's faith; it does wonderful things for millions of people, and that is a positive thing. It's the condemnations placed upon me by many who have faith that bothers me.
"You'd better be right!" is a line I have heard alot, and it rankles me because it's coming from a person who had also better be right. Sure, it can't hurt to have faith, but how much faith do people have that is directly based upon fear and worry, not genuine belief? Which is the kind of faith that god wants us to have? Is the fear-based faith unacceptable, or is faith by any design the same as every other?
I wish the word "faith" would be changed to "trust" in the semantics of worship. I don't have any faith that god exists, but I trust that if he does, I will be judged not by my faith, but my actions and relationships.
Picture it this way:
I am a wealthy lord or cleric in the Dark Ages, and I want to stay powerful and influential. I am outnumbered by my constituents, and I worry that revolt could topple me from my position. I must find a way to pacify the serfs AND keep the money flowing in, so I turn to fear of the unknown. I concoct elaborate stories of fiery damnation and heavenly redemption from the suffering of the common man, and push it with force and discipline upon the masses. Soon enough, nobody challenges my reign, for fear of God's retribution. Transpose this concept from Judaism to Hinduism, and you get the caste system. Transpose it to Pharoic Egypt, and you get Iconic worship of the Pharoahs as gods.
It's easy to see that even if the Bible is accurate, it's teachings have been used to keep wealthy men in power, by twisting the words into whatever message is necessary to achieve the desired results. That can't be OK with god...
BDV