2004 F250, 6.0 Liter, XL Super Cab, 4X4, 5R110 Transmission, no mods of any type. Having charging system problem symptoms… but is it really charging system related?

Here’s the symptoms:
1. Battery light randomly flickers dimly or maybe lights up to full brightness for a few seconds to a couple of minutes.
2. I’ll hear a click somewhere inside the dash and the radio will go silent, but not lose its memory, (this tells me there’s still battery power but not ignition power).
3. At the same time I hear the click and the radio dies, all the gauges in the instrument cluster will go full span, then drop to the key off position, (although sometimes they will hold at full span for 5 – 10 seconds before dropping to “off”).
4. Sometimes items 2 & 3 will cycle rapidly 5 – 10 or more times, sometimes they will stay off for several minutes. Hitting bumps, revving the engine, turning on or off more accessories does not appear to have any effect, positive or negative.
5. Item #1 doesn’t seem to have any correlation to items 2 & 3.
6. Power windows, cruise control, cabin lights, blower motor, instrument cluster lights, 12 volt power outlet, headlights, turn signals etc. are not affected at all.
7. Wiggling the ignition key doesn’t do anything either.
Here’s the troubleshooting I’ve done so far.
1. There has never been any blown fuses.
2. Had both batteries load tested individually by Ford Service. Both are healthy.
3. Replaced the alternator with a stock aftermarket rebuilt from a national chain. (I understand the problems with this choice but please read the whole post before ripping me for not upgrading to your favorite.)
4. Pulled the shift level and checked the wiring for the tow haul button. Found it frayed so replaced with OEM. Didn’t help the underlying problem.
5. Pulled the dash and instrument cluster. Checked all wiring I could see for signs of fraying. Nothing found. Cleaned all plugs with electrical component cleaner, lubed plugs with dielectric grease and put it all back together. Didn’t help.
6. Cleaned all battery terminals, connectors and checked ground locations. Didn’t help.
7. Throughout this whole episode I’ve been using Auto Enginuity to monitor FICM and Battery power. HOWEVER I never seem to have it hooked up when the gauges go wild, I’ve only been able to watch power levels when the battery light is acting up. Here’s the average readings:
a. FICM main voltage = 47.5 – 48.5
b. Battery voltage = 13.2 – 13.6
c. The other two FICM voltages AM will display track pretty closely with the battery voltage.
8. After one particular Gauges-Gone-Wild episode two DCT’s finally showed up. One is P-1379, FICM over-voltage. The second is B-1317, Battery over-voltage. I thought all right now I have a pretty good guess that the voltage regulator in the alternator is failing. I did a warrantee exchange and installed the new alternator. Ran the truck for about 15 miles and the battery light popped on nice and bright. I hooked up AE and found the battery voltage at 11.3. BUT… while driving back home, AE showed battery voltage climbing back to 13.5 or so and holding there. That was yesterday. Drove about 60 miles today with AE hooked in the whole time. Battery voltage stayed above 13 all the time even though the battery light kept randomly flickering on and off. (The gauges have not gone wild since the second alternator change.)(FICM Main voltage has been staying between 47.5 and 48.5.)
9. This morning I found a circuit diagram and normal system voltages for the “I”, “A” and Battery wires coming off the alternator. I pulled out the digital multimeter and read the following:
a. “A” has the same volts the batteries have regardless of key position.
b. Battery lead has the same voltage as “A” regardless of key position.
c. “I” has zero volts with the key off.
d. “I” has battery voltage with the key on, engine off, (i.e. somewhere around 13 volts).
e. “I” has battery voltage with the key on, engine on regardless of the glow plug cycle.
I am now completely stumped and have started researching other ideas that may mimic charging system problems. The most likely problem I’ve found so far is this comment on another board “the issue is the Accessory Relay/ Power Saver circuit. This fine little jewel is within the Instrument Cluster and cannot be repaired by a simple replacement part, it's buried in the circuit board of the Instrument Cluster”
My question to all of you is have any of you ran across this idea? Can the Accessory Relay / Power Saver circuit cause what I’m experiencing? Could this be an instrument cluster issue? Or do any of you have ideas I haven’t tried yet?

 

sounds to me like you have a problem in your cluster itself

 

Could be the cluster yes......can always go old school and bang on the dash when this happens to see if you notice a change.
I would find the fuse for the cluster, it's obviously not blown but perhaps there is a continuity issue.
Can always go the a dealer that has high end scanning tool to run diagnostics on it to see if it's got issues.

 

Intentionally banging on the dash is not something I’ve tried yet. (I don’t suppose beating one’s forehead on the steering wheel counts?) I have pulled the fuse and tweaked the prongs a tad to make sure there is a tight fit.

But seriously, other than having Ford Service do diagnostics, is there any other way to diagnose a failing instrument cluster?

 

have you tried circuit board medics? they deal with stuff like this and are a site sponsor, I'd call them.

The gauges going full sweep says the PCM lost power.

The relay can be checked, windows up, you inside and doors closed. start the relay timer by doing key on and then key off and see if windows go up and down, then open the door and test windows again. You can wait until radio powers off by itself and then check windows function again. Opening the door should kill the timer.

 

Circuit Board Medics are on my bookmarks. They are my next stop. I just wanted to make sure there was nothing else to try before I send the instrument cluster off for some R&R.

 

I'd call and ask if there were a few tests they recommend.

 

with regards to #2

I’ll hear a click somewhere inside the dash and the radio will go silent, but not lose its memory, (this tells me there’s still battery power but not ignition power).

The radio "preset" stations are retained from internal memory, so that doesn't really prove anything.

But IF you can use the menu (depending upon your radio type) and enable the setting that displays the Station and Song info THAT will tell you if a complete power loss happens or not.

I have this enabled, and whenever I disconnect the batteries to do work, this setting gets reset, and I have to re-enable it..

Since the truck keeps running when the dash freaks out, I would lean towards the instrument cluster, or a loose connection to it.

 

I understand that there have been 2 new alternators on the truck, but this still sounds like an overvoltage condition to me when the gauges actually sweep and the cluster reboots. My recommendation would be to continue monitoring the system voltage and try to catch this when the gauges sweep. I know that you are using AE (but for others reading this in the future without access to such tools )I've seen guys make a pigtail for the cigarette lighter and attach it to a voltmeter. You can then choose the "max" setting on the multimeter to catch any surges in voltage. Anything over 16V is going to cause the cluster to reboot.
Since you mentioned that you have not been able to monitor system voltage when the gauges go wild, this would be the next step in your troubleshooting process to rule out.

 

During the time periods my dash freaks out, the clock on my radio does not reset. Anytime I've disconnected the vehicle batteries, the radio clock reset to 12:00. That is what I was using to make the assumption about an ignition power interruption and not a battery power interruption. I will check out your suggestions the next time the problem shows up.

 

I like the idea about a cigarette lighter pigtail. As you know, AE hooked to a laptop has a pretty big footprint compared to a multimeter. My multimeter also has a much quicker boot time.

I'll post an update of the battery voltage the next time the gauges sweep.

 

I'm having a similar problem right now... my gauges don't sweep, the dash just shuts down, along with the radio, and power windows. It usually happens right at startup. It has varying degrees of severity, sometimes the transmission will over pressure, and sometimes the engine will lose power and miss. I've discovered if I wiggle the wiring under the power distribution box, it will return to normal after a bit of wiggling. Maybe try that. I'll dig into it when I don't need the truck for a few days.

*EDIT*
Just spent an hour wiggling all the wires under the PDBox and nothing. It must have just been a coincidence coming on while I was doing it before. So don't waste too much time doing it. I think it's the cluster on mine.

 

Sounds like one or both batteries are going out. Same thing has happened to me on my 04 Excursion, 01 Supercrew, 90 F150 and each time a battery replacement cured my problems. One of the things that seems to be built into a Ford is when the battery starts to go bad the gauges do a full sweep at startup then return to zero and begin to function correctly. Yes, it was expensive to replace both batteries in my Excursion, almost $400.


Good Luck,
Jeff

 

Update on the problem. The gauge sweep was being caused by an over-voltage problem. Alternator #2 was doing very quick power spikes that were hard to catch. I had to be looking at the multimeter to see it happen as the duration would be a couple of seconds at most. While I can't confirm it, I believe alternator #1 was spiking as well and suspect the duration was longer.

The fix was alternator #3. This time I went with a new Bosch AL7606N instead of the aftermarket rebuilt.

Thanks to all who offered suggestions and special kudos to CircuitBoardMedics for the additional troubleshooting ideas.

 

Nice! Congratulations on getting it fixed!