How do we know they are working? We read and hear claims of 1-3 MPG improvement. 1-3 MPG! Really! That is a hell of an improvement and IMHO it's close to being not true. We can easily check the MPG's by hand and determine any improvement and not use the lie-o-meter, but I'm sure some do. But even doing the math some guys still say they got say a 2 MPG improvement! Seriously! 2 MPG's is a ton of improvement. Is it possible to gain that many MPG's with and additive?

Next, how would one know the claims of percentage of cetane boost are correct? I'm not smart enough to know how to determine if you get ANY cetane boost from any additive. Not saying you don't, but how do you know?

Next, how does one know the claims of lubrication are true? I know we have the 07 Additive Lubricity Study Report by A D Spicer. In that study second in line behind Bio-Diesel was Opti-Lube XPD. Some says it works great! Best stuff ever! How do we know? Yet some folks will say " this stuff is terrible and doesn't work, just use TCW3 OBMO that's all you need..... Others will say our trucks were not designed to have TCW3 added to the fuel. It causes soot and clogs fuel filters..... Some have reported the injectors are noticeably quieter, heck, I even said that in a post here. Are they? Or is it a placebo effect?

Some say our trucks don't need any additional lubrication in the fuel, fuel distributors take care of adding back any lubrication lost during refining. I for one sure as hell do not believe we can trust that they do this. But lets say they do, how do we know it's enough?

Lastly some additives say it cleans and lubricates. How can it do both? Seems to me in order to clean it would need to strip away anything from the system that should not be there. Including lubrication?

I'm not implying that members here or other forums are not telling the truth. I'm merely asking:

How do we know it's working?

How do we know which one to use?

David

 

Welcome To The Machine..........

 

I replied to your earlier thread. I have never seen the 2-3 mpg increase some claim. I have seen about .4 to .7, hand calculated, that I feel can be attributable to the additives when averaged over 5 tanks of fuel during the same seasonal blend cycle, during similar towing and terrain. I have a 38 gal tank. 38x.4=15.2 extra miles to the tank which equals approximately the cost of a gallon of fuel...at least for my truck....so when fuel prices are high enough, it offsets the cost of the additive to about the break even point. So then it becomes a question of:
Does it increase the life of the injectors? I don't know...but I will in another 120,000 miles...if not, it has been a waste of time and possibly money.

To attempt to remove the subjectivity from the equation for loudness of the injectors, I use two different measuring devices. I have seen as much as a 4 decibel decrease with some of the additives Opti-Lube being one and Amsoil being the other. Power Service products produce no difference while two-stoke does a little. If you have an Android device or an iPhone, you can download several apps that measure both decibels and monitor the spectrum of frequencies of the sound. The only problem with them is the fact that some hardware setups can have spectrum limitations built in with either hardware or software. But, they are better than nothing.

Case in point: analyze a gunshot with several different devices and you might find that one or more don't recognize the peaks throughout the whole spectrum and simply flat line near the top of those frequencies.

Different tuning can increase or decrease injector noise...simple test is to change from a performance tune to a drive-thru tune. You can measure that change with these apps as well which confirms what your ears are hearing. That is why you can hear the fact that the tunes from some tuners are louder than others...sometimes unnecessarily so.....

I believe F-250 is substantially more qualified to answer the formulation questions as to how and why you can lubricate and still clean.

The labels will specifically inform you as to whether they increase cetane....I don't have a clue how to tell if the claims are true.

You are correct in that the chart that I posted is from 2007. Unfortunately there has not been an update that I am aware of since then...so it is the best we have. There are newer products available that I would like to see stand the test...Archoil fuel additive being one of them...no difference in decibels, the Amsoil formulation has been supposedly improved so I would like to see that as well.

I do think that our engines benefit from lubrication due to the fact that our injection system is more mechanical in nature...IMO

I have not had a clogged filter from using two-stroke oil but there is a little more soot.

 

This has always been my question as well. Chris, aka F350-6, has about 500k miles on his PSD, and if I remember correctly, he replaced his injectors at around 350k miles? (Later finding out he didn't need to). It's folks like him that I hope we hear from.

 

I can answer some of Dave's questions, but am slammed at the office right now and it will have to wait until sometime this weekend.

I will say a couple of things briefly, though.

1) There is some element of trust required. Although the cetane issue CAN be tested and verified... it's just not worth the cost to us lowly consumers who don't have the high dollar testing lab to know for ourselves, and paying someone other test lab to do this is not cheap.

2) I have personally measured some mpg improvement with a couple of additives, but nothing close to 2+ mpg. There are a ton of variables here.

3) Fuel distributors are required by law to use additives to meet EPA requirements, but the EPA lubricity standard is not consistent (read as "not as good") as what our older engines were designed to run on. At the same time, there are some distributors who DO sell an enhanced "premium diesel" fuel which WOULD be adequate for our engines, but this is not common.

4) The clogged filter issue is generally a problem only with the hotter running OTR engines of a particular design. I can't remember off hand what those parameters are, but I can find them. Bottom line is that unless we are racing heavy, we are unlikely to experience the problem with "asphaltene" that the OTR engines are seeing.

5) In terms of cleaning while lubricating... it is possible! Depending on the chemistry... oily substances can dissolve some things. At the same time, you can have other organic compounds which can clean things like asphaltene while not interfering with the lubricating organics in the same fluid. To put it simply... Think of using WD40 to clean sticker glue off of something! The glue goes away and your left with a very slippery surface.

6) Now for the philosophy input... There will always... ALWAYS be naysayers as technology develops and is implemented, and some people just will NOT accept change and will denigrate those who do. These people are simply trying to make themselves feel better about themselves, and it has nothing to do with YOU except that in asking the question, it gets received as a challenge and they respond accordingly. Keep in mind the overall character, personality, and reasoning (or lack thereof) from EVERYone you listen to... then sort out those who are only trying to justify their own choices, and you will then begin to reach towards truth.

7) How do we know it's working? We might not ever know until we reach ultra high mileage with additives. Personally, I've been using additives since 114K on my truck. I have 276K now, and am still running original injectors and original turbo, and am still getting the same mileage I did 7 years ago.

 

Thanks for the responses guys!
David

 

How do we know they are working ?

1. Anadotal statements for users. I.e. " I drove mine to the moon and back and it worked great "

2. Marketing statements from the people selling it. i.e. " clinically proven to work 36 times better "

3. Independent lab test, Good luck with that.

4. Faith. Because it makes us feel better.

 

Right! Or, "I put in a pint of XYZ additive last time I filled up and it works great"

 

Here is one way. Last part he uses a Bore Scope to inspect both before and after.


Dyno

 

The way I look at something like this is I just put what my truck was designed for, diesel fuel, I have 440,000+ miles on the truck and it's been happy and I'm satisfied with that, I may try some additives but not sure yet

 

The problem is the fuel changed for the worse,I will do everything i can to put lubricity back in the fuel that was removed.