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Here is the key to reman injectors, call each vendor and ask them point blank what they do step by step, what components are replaced and how they specificly correct the wear on the oil side of the injector.
gather all the info from your choice of phone calls/emails and then make your selection. It is sad to say but I have seen big name shops use cheap measures to make a buck. I hate to see people pay good money for a product with many corners cut. And sorry but the length of the warranty means nothing to me. I purchase products myself based on quality. Typically a product or workmanship fails sighing a short period after install. What good is a warranty no matter how long if it has loopholes and/or doesn't cover the issue.
So am I wrong for not calling out a company I had a bad experience with when I may be in the minority? Or should I be upset with all of the people that recommended them? I was just putting my experience out there and stating what I will do in the future.
There's a difference between relating your experience and naming the company, and calling the company out. It's all in the tone of a persons post and the verbiage used.
Not asking you to do anything more than you have, just saying there is a difference.
Lots of people have posted negative experiences they've had with FTE supporting vendors, and it was nothing more than someone relating their trials and tribulations with zero bashing or mudslinging.
Just a little food for thought.
Stewart
PS - I've dished out a lot of reps in this thread. Since reps are private, here's a big public thanks to those that have posted great info.
3 questions as this seams to be the injector thread of threads
1) split shots to single shots what is the deal and use of each? My understanding is this. Split shots were designed to be a little more quiet, to spread out the time fuel is delivered to allow the fuel more time to burn and help lower emissions. I could be way off base on my comment though.
2) What is the advantage of a larger displacement injector and how far is to far? The larger displacement injector can deliver more fuel. The larger nozzle will deliver it quicker. I believe anything above 200cc and 80% nozzles will require specialized tuning to get them to run right. Most guys with those injectors and bigger either do their own tuning or have their trucks live tuned.
1) split shots to single shots what is the deal and use of each?
The split shot fires a tiny shot for "pre-ignition", then there's a slight delay, then the main shot follows. This helps with emissions, and makes the injection cycle a little quieter. Unfortunately, we have a very tiny window of time available to fire the injector at higher RPMs. Splits rob us valuable fueling time when we want the power, and our Injector Control Pressure is wasted during the throw between the two fuelings of an injection cycle. Hybrids make each fueling larger, and they use mechanical trickery to reduce the demand for Injector Control Pressure - but they trade off atomization.
Single shots are fueling from start to finish, so it's easier to get more fuel in there sooner - more fuel at the top of the combustion cycle gives more horsepower, and a longer fuel cycle gives more torque.
Originally Posted by hotrodfeguy
2) What is the advantage of a larger displacement injector and how far is to far?
More fuel = more power, given enough air to burn it cleanly and in a timely manner. Remember... each HEUI injector is just a fancy Windex spray head. Fuel pressure does nothing more than fill the reservoir in the spray head - ICP is the hand force on the spray trigger. The reservoir size is measure in CCs per 1000 cycles. Stock is 130-140, and IH single-shots are 160. The trick: The stock nozzle allows only so much fuel to leave the injector, so this is the first hurdle. Balancing the nozzle size with the injector capacity and the vehicle purpose is important. Smaller nozzles extend the burn for more torque and keep higher atomization, but they may not allow all the capacity to be used at high RPMs (limiting ultimate HP).
Too far is relative. If you tune your own truck, I know someone locally with 450/400s (450 cc per 1000 cycles and 400% flow above stock nozzle) to sneak up on 600 HP - and he has crazy serious mods to allow him to get there in one piece. My experience says once you cross the 100% nozzle threshold, emailed tunes start to have difficulty with getting the engine to run "stock-ish" (smooth idle and throttle in traffic). Many are OK with what they have, but I'm OCD... so Stinky is live-tuned with 160/100 single-shots. 250/200s are deep in live-tuning territory.
First....Thanks for so much education from FTE and it's members.
I am trying to figure out how to ask this question and not sound like I am completely in the dark. I have basic understanding of Split vs. Single.
I'm trying to gain a better understanding of the numbers associated with the various injectors. You guys call them say STOCK are 130 - 140. I get that this is the cc volume per 1000 cycles. Then you talk about a percentage #.
Could someone explain that to me.
Does 100% mean it injects 100% of the reservoir capacity in a single shot?
I also wondered about (and I think I already know the answer is NO) , Are the split shot the same as the single shot EXCEPT for the programming of the IDM? (Pretty sure there is more to it than that).
I have a 2003 E-Series. (I assume) it's been factory installed with 120 - 130 Split Shots. Can they be made to be Single Shots by reprogramming the IDM or would you have to reprogram MANY other things if it's even possible to do..
And is there a Logical reason I might want to look into doing such a thing?
(Lets assume I just don't care about emissions), Since that (seems) to be a big reason that they designed the Split Shots.
One other question...
Are ALL my Injectors likely the same or is the one in the (#8) cylinder likely a different model injector to compensate for a lack of fuel pressure because the cylinder just before it has just fired and used up the presure that is about to (try) to refill the #8. (I am saying #8 but I probably have the wrong cylinder number there). Just something I remember reading about. Is (#8) an AE and all the others something else?
(Something like that?) DDT
Your van came with AD code 140cc split shots, and none of those physical parameters can be changed with tuning. Your #8 (you remembered correctly) has an AE or AF long lead injector, for exactly what you said. If you "fix" the fuel supply issue then you can install a regular AD injector in there.
Programming changes are needed if you replace your injectors with single shots. Getting larger nozzles on your stock splits won't necessarily mean tunes, but tunes will reveal more power from the new nozzles. Heck, tunes can mean more power from the stock injectors, assuming your engine is in top notch condition stock.
IDM's are pretty much all the same, they simply provide the driving voltage for the injector solenoid, which went from 100Vdc in 1994 to 140Vdc by the time your van came out. I think the common mods brought it up to around 150Vdc, so you won't see much benefit unless your IDM has an issue. Those mods are hardwired, not programmed. In a pinch, any IDM will get your truck running and get you home.
You only need to change your injectors if they're getting worn out, or you want more power
In this case, then you can start to consider all the upgrades, but it gets pricey really quick. If your engine isn't 100% right now, there's lots of little things, which aren't that pricey individually, that can find some of those lost ponies from 2003.
Stock AD split shots like you have are technically about 150cc IIRC, however, due to the pilot injection that is really just for noise, they only use about 135cc to make usable power.
The percentage # that you see is the percentage over stock that the nozzle on that particular injector has. This means that an 80% nozzle will flow 80% more fuel over a stock nozzle for any given length of time. So a 160cc/80% injector will flow the 160cc of fuel faster than a 160/0. It does not mean it will inject that percentage per shot.
Split shots are not the same as single shot injectors. True, you do have to have custom tunes made to run single shots on a pcm that was written for split shots, but there are physical differences between the two.
To change your injectors, you would have to send them to one of the injector builders and have them remanufactured to whatever cc/% you want.
Single shots tend to get a little better mileage assuming they are not huge hybrids and you can keep your foot of the skinny petal.
If still on original stock sticks, you might have an AE (long lead injector) in the 8 cyclinder, however it is really the same as the others and can accounted for in custom tuning I believe. Better solution is to get a regulated return to actually solve the issue the long lead injector was masking.
These are basic answers to your questions and I'm sure others will have more specifics. Especially tugly.
Thank you for the answers. I'm glad at least a (little bit) of what I remembered was correct.
Those (to the point) explanations have increased my understanding that much better.
I'm not having any problems that I know of. And I have been unable to decide if it's worth the expense to get the regulated fuel return's that are offered or just figure Fords engineers developed a good design fix with the long lead injector in #8. (I'm sure it was the cheaper of the options (they) could implement.)
You guys may have answered this and I just didn't get it But I still don't have a grip on this point...
So....Am I to understand that if it's say a 150cc injector, It takes 1000 (cycles) to use up that much fuel? (150 cc's is about .625 of a liquid cup & I am pretty sure I am not using that much fuel on every injection on 8 cylinders or I might be able to make it maybe 1/2 mile on a full tank!) LOL).
So mathematically, each injection cycle is only .15 cc's of fuel?
I'm SURE I don't have this right. Not to mention there are no carved in stone amounts unless you add in a LOT of other factors I am sure.
Speed, RPM, Throttle & HP you are asking for...
Maybe I should ask....whats the relationship between the reservoir capacity and the injection amount per injection? Is it such a small amount that (we) show it as an amount per 1000?
It's obvious I am missing some basic point here, right? LOL Thanks DDT
... Fords engineers developed a good design fix with the long lead injector in #8. (I'm sure it was the cheaper of the options (they) could implement.)
The FRx mod I installed from Riffraff is much cheaper and a lot less work than replacing an injector. I dunno what Ford was thinking...
Originally Posted by dieseldogtom
...if it's say a 150cc injector, It takes 1000 (cycles) to use up that much fuel?
This is the maximum amount of fuel that the injector is capable of using. Unless you've got the pedal to the metal, it's injecting much less.
Give this a read if you're still interested. It might help.
Yes, I imagine the FRX would be the cheaper & easier option on an existing vehicle. I was thinking at the factory/build level. If they had a big supply of the LL injectors and they just started inserting those in #8 instead of the stock type. But as you say, Even at the build/factory level the FRX really would have been the way to go. The blocks seem to be designed to have the engine set up that way and I imagine lots of OTHER IH engines in OTHER applications come through in that configuration. Just something Ford thought they could (change) and I am sure it was about cutting costs. Looks like they found out the hard way it was not worth it.
@Tugly,
That's an interesting point about the Hutch Mod. I had not considered that the (issue) could (equally?) be resolved with the Hutch Mod. I can see the AIR reduction as a result of Hutch. I have a harder time envisioning the fuel pressure drop. Never thought of that as related to air in the system so much as the firing order. I'm NOT saying I disagree with you, I am saying I just had not thought of that aspect of the Hutch mod. addressing Both the issues involved with this subject.
Since the Hutch Mod. is a very good idea to get addressed, and if it also addresses BOTH the air & pressure drop issues in #8, I don't see the reason to spend any extra $ on the FRX. Though I am certainly not qualified to say the FRX is not also something that one should do. I am sure there ARE reasons to do the FRX (like fuel pressure increases if desired or needed for a tune...).
Thank you all for indulging my questions. For the most part I learn something new with every reply. DDT @SaintITC
