Not sure what forum to post this topic in but i figured the truck i own is in this category so why not!

Okay so who knows anything about vapor fuel gas systems? in 1938 Charles Nelson Poque invented the vapor carburetor that yielded 200 miles on one gallon of gas in a ford V8! yes yes now i know that astronomical figure had alot to do with the highly volatile leaded fuels of the day but despite that it remains that gasoline is in its most powerful form when vaporized. Has anybody on this site attempted to create such a system or heard of such a system? ive read of a backyarder building one on a suburban and getting about 40 mpg out of it (with performance issues and god only knows what other issues). that aside i still think this concept deserves some much needed attention. I think if a well engineered vapor fuel system was invented we would be saving alot of money driving our trucks! thoughts anyone?? any brave souls interested in an attempt?

 

I doubt any configuration of that carb would work today, but you could think about a cold air tank vaporizer or even a sealed tank nebulizer. I think either one of these would probably yield some pretty good results. Just remember though, either have a test engine setup or if you use your personal engine, don't make any modifications that can't be undone.

 

I like a good conspiracy as much as the next guy but there are limits to the amount of energy that can be extracted from a gallon of gasoline.

Dig a little deeper, into the hard science behind it and recognize some very smart people have worked pretty hard on this. During World War II fuel was of course the critical issue for all sides - and there was no concern about "buying up patents"; you can be sure that were 200 mpg carburetors possible, the Russian or German or Japanese or British or American scientists would have used them.

 

i wasnt speaking to any "conspiracy theories" its pretty obvious there were great issues with the setup that was built by poque and the recreations thereafter. im simply opening up conversation about the scientific concept of vaporized gasoline in general.

 

No conspiracy, it's already a fact that 1 gallon of liquid gasoline is about the equivalent of 100 - 150? gallons when vaporized.

Some people have been successful in some areas but I think the biggest part is to make it cost efficient to the regular working family and to get the auto manufacturers on board, which would be very hard to do because the the auto makers go hand in hand with the oil companies.

Now say the auto makers DID start putting the vapor fuel or whatever else into their cars, say they were getting 100mpg on average, do you still really think 1 gallon of gas is going to cost $3.50 - $4.00? No that same gallon of gas just went to about $30 - $40. Either the the companies make out like a bandit and us poor working slobs still get bent over.

The car companies know that the computers in the car will not work properly with vapor unless they are recalibrate or have new programs written, so if the regular working guy wanted to do this on his own it would have to be done on cars that were basically OBD I or older. I'm sure some of the smarter people on this site and others, would be able to figure it out but I for one am not one of them.

 

The conspiracy part isn't the fact that liquids can be vaporized, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Leaving aside for the moment the impossibility of 200 mpg from the physics standpoint, the various war departments would have been ecstatic to utilize this technology, especially, Japan and Germany. Instead they were using horses, and coal gasification, and synthetic fuels.

 

A friend of mine actually built one of those "200 mpg carburetors" for his 1979 F100 2X4. He had a 351 Cleveland so he put that into his truck and put the carb on it. I helped him do both the engine swap and building the carb. He didn't follow the blueprints exactly but he followed it pretty close. He used a manual gate to shut the fuel off to his carb so his engine ran strictly on the vapours. We discovered that his truck needed to completely warm up in order to run on the vapours. We also discovered that no matter what we did he couldn't control the engine heat under all circumstances. He got about 40 mpg out of his truck overall.

We lived about 30 K out of town so he put a lot of highway miles on it. He had to be careful climbing hills or hauling heavy stuff as his engine would heat up. Probably a timing thing but I knew nothing about that kind of stuff back then. He may have tried adjusting it but I don't remember if he talked about it or not.

I was going to copy him because his results were pretty good but we never did figure out how to keep the engine temp where it belongs. I didn't want to trash my engine and he moved before we could tweak his set up any more and I lost contact with him so I basically lost interest. I still think about that every now and again though.

 

very interesting! do you have any pictures of the build or any more specifics on what was used and how it was done? how was the throttle response and performance temp aside?

 

This.

Vehicles are typically in the 20-40% efficient range. So, if you have a truck that is 20% efficient, getting 20 MPG, the theoretical best it could do (should you find a way to eliminate ALL heat loss from the engine and ALL frictional losses in the wind, tires and bearings) would be 100 MPG.

But, you'll never eliminate wind resistance, bearings might get a little better, and with internal combustion engines, there will always be major heat loss.

200 MPG didn't happen, and isn't going to. There's just not enough energy in a gallon of gas or diesel to overcome the aforementioned losses and still move a heavy vehicle 200 miles per gallon used.

Jason

 

If you think about it, as critters we're pretty "lucky" that there are such a thing as hydrocarbons. The amount of energy in a gallon of fuel is amazing.

How far would you be willing to push your truck with a load of gravel in the bed up a mountain pass for $3.50.

22 miles sound OK? That's what I thought.

 

Then this conversation belongs down in mileage and alternative fuels.
Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

Poque was a scam artist like many shysters both before and after him.
All fuel burns as a vapor, even a wood log.

As others have said, do the math.
Energies in a C-H bond are well known ever since the advent of the bomb calorimeter.
The laws of thermodynamics hold true for everything on a scale we can recognize.

 

ok sounds good!

 

Maybe the best comparison method to determine fuel use is by it's energy content.


That's the actual energy content if completely burned. Gasoline typically has 115,000 BTUs per gallon, Propane about 92,500, diesel fuel about 130,000, ethanol 76,000, hydrogen 52,000, light fuel oils as high as 160,000.


Looking at these numbers, compared to liquefied gases like propane, gasoline looks pretty good. The real high value for diesel helps explain why diesels are so efficient at producing equal amounts of power output.


If we dig up values for the number of BTUs needed to produce certain results with a given vehicle, and also find out efficiency numbers for typical combustion engines with certain restrictions applied, we could either PROVE or DEBUNK the 200 mi/gal claim. But ya gotta compare doughnuts to doughnuts. A gasoline powered skateboard with a model RC engine might get 300 mi/gal, but so what? Impractical. impish

 

A gallon is not a unit of mass, but the concept is good!
A gallon of liquid hydrogen is never going to happen at STP.

Think of any petroleum product as millions of years of distilled sunshine.

Hydrocarbon fuelcells can be 40-50% efficient and electric motors in the 1-200 Hp range are 90+% efficient.
Numbers are even better when you include retro braking instead of using friction to turn that momentum into heat.

THIS might get you to 200mpg, but it remains to be done by a mass produced practical vehicle.

 

Buffalo Bill, Unfortunately I don't have any pictures as they went up in smoke in a house fire. My memory is also not "picture perfect" but I do remember he used an air pump to supply air to the gas in the "vaporizer" to "boil" the gas to produce the vapours. The original plans called for using the pressure from the engine fan to blow into an air horn, thus pressurizing the canister.

As for performance, at the time I had a 1972 F250 4X2 camper special, 360 engine and the granny low four speed. All I can remember is his truck simply ran away from mine. I think he could have done the same thing with a four banger in his truck though as that old four speed of mine simply didn't like to go fast.

I haven't looked up the Pogue carb on the internet but I'm pretty sure one could download the instructions. He ordered them via mail as the internet hadn't been invented yet.

If you're interested in something like that maybe look into Browns Gas. Unlike the fabled "200 MPG Carb" it is real and is currently being used in many industrial applications as a gas for welding/cutting (I think cutting is correct), generators as well as heaters.