What is "dino" oil, also, what is"moly" oil? Is dino just oil that ain't syn? Thanks...

 

Dino oil is the term that generally means non synthetic. The slang means dinosaur, as in made from old dinosaurs.

Moly is short for molybdenum disulfide. This is an antiwear additive. Some oils have a small amount in it, and some dont. Its a good additive.

 

Ahhhh! Now me understand... Thanks. Back of the bottle will show on a ingredients label if it has moly?

 

Nope. Usually it will not. You'll have to do some research on the internet, and even then you may not find out what a specific oil contains.

 

With regard to moly, I think it should be noted that their are different opinions on its value as a motor oil additive. From what I can remember, the difference of opinion has to do with moly's ability to stay in place in environments that combine high shear, high speed and high temperature.

That is partially why some oils contain moly and some don't.

I do know that it is used as an EP (extreme pressure) additive in some greases and seems to do a very good job in high shear, low speed applications like linkage parts, but not as well in wheel bearings, etc.

 

As I understand it there are two kinds of moly. One is based on solids which can get into lifters and plug them up. I can't remember which name is the solids. Need to do a search.

 

Dino oil is crude oil that comes out of the ground and is refined using various methods. Synthetic is usually refering to PAO basestocks (yes, there are others)which are gas to liquid technology and the molecular structure is changed so much that it doesn't resemble the original. The same applies to the "dino synthetics" (group III"s) in that the molecular structure has been radically changed. PAO's have better pumpability characteristics in cold environments and usually exhibit lower oxidation rates in high heat environments. Dinos usually exhibit lower wear metals but require oil changes more frequently.

Molybdenum disulfide hasn't been used in years in motor oils. The particulate size is too large and most ends up in the oil filter. Its use was questionable anyway. The "moly" referred to today is molybdenum trialkyldithcarbamate (MoTDC) which is a clear liquid and is an excellent anti-wear agent. The major problem with it is that it usually requires temps in the 300F+ range for it to be of value. It makes a great boundary lube and I personally look for an oil that has about 50ppm.

 

Flash - do you have any more info on "molybdenum trialkyldithcarbamate"? The only reference I could find in a brief, but fairly complete, web search was in the Schaeffer's website, and there it was labeled a "trade secret". Do any major motor oil producers use it?

Don't know if you are a Schaeffer's user or not, but I haven't been all that impressed with their products over the years. No offense, and I apologize in advance if I am incorrect, but it sounds like another "snake oil" pitch to me...

 

oppy, it is no "trade secret" and yes there is quite a bit of motor oils out there today that do use it in their formulations. My favorite is Chevron Supreme which has about 50 ppm. Others, depending on the price point and weight, would be Pennzoil, Havoline, Castrol GTX, Valvoline, and Exxon/Mobil. Another good anti-wear to look for is boron. It is expensive but good. I like to see at least 100 ppm's or more. Again, Chevron Supreme has about 125 ppm. In your research, you might want to find an oil with a high HT/HS rating as this directly relates to ring and bearing wear.

If you are looking for an oil with LOTS of moly, Redline is headquarters for it as it usually has 500+ppm. It works great in a race motor as it "plates" the motor quickly and usually race engines are run at the boundary lube state anyway. Redline, however, usually will shear down a grade.

I don't think I have ever seen a "boutique" oil out perform any over the counter oils for the average driver. Most folks running synthetic do it because it "protects better" but they have no clue as to how or why or if it is real. But then again, it must be real because they saw it on TV. Oh, the virtues of advertizing.

 

Thanks for clearing that up - I just get nervous when someone posts some property or additive as the "best" and the only reference I can find to it is Schaeffer's, Amzoil or some other "boutique" brand's product info.

I was aware of boron's use as an AW additive, just not the moly stuff. The problem I have found is that the formulation of most oils is a secret closely guarded by the refineries - kinda like Coke and Pepsi - and it's nearly impossible to find out exactly what's in them.

Based on your familiarity with this info, you must work in the industry - yes?

 

oppy,

Boron succinic ester complex's are branched, act as emulsifier's and corrosion inhibitors while Borated Amines are corrosion inhibitors as well these are somewhat polar in nature and stick to the internal parts sort of like a coating.

Oil soluable moly has been used by race oil formulators for years with good success as a extreme boundry layer additive.

When the cap limit on phosporus came about with the API SL GF3 oils many put the above mentioned moly in the formulations for added protection " it appears Chevron's 30 wts has now as well " because they lowered the amount of ZDDP but it is certainly NOT a necessity to produce a very good motor oil. Take a look at some of the European long drain oils available, not a one uses this type nor any type moly in formulation. It is just not needed with great basestocks and heavy doses of magnesium and boron. Many of these Euro oils can run 30k kilometers in the right conditions and w/o moly at that. Some have a starting TBN of 17.5 in a low ash SL formulation.

I like a oil that is built on good basestocks, just like the foundation of a house. Some will say a oil with a so called " Superior additive package and lots of moly" built on a group 1/group II blended oil basestock will perform with the best synlubes. Make no mistake it is simply not so.

With todays hot running motors oxidation stability and TBN retention is the key to success. The best way to get long drain performance is to start with better basestocks that resist both high and low temp sludging and are more resistant to shear ect,ect.

Guy's, oil is a very hot topic we can all agree on that but one thing that is not debatable is that a higher group basetock with a good additive package will outperform the lower groups period. The Industry is heading towards group III's because of price vs performance and quite frankly, some of the group III/PAO blended oils are dang near to the point of reigning supreme especially in terms of cost vs performance. How do you think they are getting the 5/20's to run out well ?


PS, I'm not in the Industry, just a consumer with oil as a hobby and do not like or have need for mail order oils " no offense to those who choose this route" nor the 3 month /3k oil changes that work for many. We all beat to different drums when it comes to motor oil decisions and that friends is nothing to get mad at each other about. This a just a discussion board and oiling our Fords are discussions that many of us will disagree on in how we spend our money.

Ford Trucks! The best out there

 

oppy, didn't anybody ever tell you that work is a four letter word that ends in K? And yes, I get accused of it on a regular basis. Regular to the tune of about 60-70 hours a week.

DOHC, there will be arguements til everybody is dead about the properties of motor oils and which is best. You can't. however, compare ACEA with API standards as the US automakers have emmission standards that they have to meet that the euro folks don't. Extended drain intervals in Europe are common practice because of the additive packages they are allowed to use and that package would virtually kill an American made auto. We also have CAFE to contend with that the Euro's don't have but are going to have to address. It's a changing industry and you almost need a scorecard to keep up. The future- no oil changes at all and no dipstick as the auto maker is not going to want you to touch the system. The prelims are already in place. Most likely will see it on the streets 7-10 years.

 

I can personnally attest to that. I was in Rome a few years ago, and the air was just filthy from all the exhaust fumes. You could see the big black and blue clouds of smoke belching out of the little Fiats. If it wasn't for the size of the cars, it would've almost looked - and smelled - like 1968 again

I hear you on the ***k thing, Flash. I used to work for a multi-line distributor and chemical manufacturer. Left about 12 years ago, so I have forgotten most of the pearls of wisdom I learned. It seems things have changed quite a bit in the last decade

 

Another interesting thread here, guys. I just have few comments to add:

(1) DOHC, you mentioned that the Industry is heading towards group III's, and I thought that was the case myself until I read a few things about Chevron Supreme now being made from a Group II+ instead of a Group III, which would be a step in the opposite direction by a major refiner. Related to that, IMO, is the fact that it is more expensive to refine Group III oils vs. Groups I & II and we all know how cost plays into any corporation's business plan. Moreover, additive packages are a substantial and necessary part of any modern motor oil, and Group III's do not mix as well with them as the Group I & IIs.

(2) oppy, thanks for observation on moly and grease applications;

(3) Flash, they are going to have to pry that dipstick out of my cold, dead hand because nobody is ever going to tell me I can't check my oil!

 

Rockledge,
1. The only difference between Gp II+ and GPIII is the VI, otherwise, it is the same.

2. If you buy a vehicle that has no dipstick, I'll weld one on for ya.