Spartan tuner question
Thread Starter
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Senior User
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373
Likes: 1
From: Anchorage, Alaska
Spartan tuner question
Hey everyone,I just picked up an 08 f450 and have a question on the spartan tuner. I've had it a week and I already hate the regen. Funds are pretty short as I bought the truck and an 1150 arctic fox camper in one fail swoop. If I buy a spartan tuner, can I turn off the regen, even with keeping the dpf or will that cause issues? I plan to do the air dog, dpf delete, egr delete, intake elbow, etc, but I have to wait for some more funds. I have enough left for just the tuner. Any thoughts? Thanks!
Senior User
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
If you can go ahead and get the tuner id say go for it, it will delete the DPF and EGR. The delete pipes can be bought for $200. The tuner will turn off the EGr and when more funds become available you can fully remove the EGR coolers and replace air intake and whatever else you want to do. Step 1 is the tuner though so might as well knock that out.
But like Bubba said, you have to remove the DPF if you turn off regen otherwise it will plug that up. When purchasing the delete piep make sure it deletes the CAT & DPF.
But like Bubba said, you have to remove the DPF if you turn off regen otherwise it will plug that up. When purchasing the delete piep make sure it deletes the CAT & DPF.
Thread Starter
|
Senior User
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 373
Likes: 1
From: Anchorage, Alaska
If you can go ahead and get the tuner id say go for it, it will delete the DPF and EGR. The delete pipes can be bought for $200. The tuner will turn off the EGr and when more funds become available you can fully remove the EGR coolers and replace air intake and whatever else you want to do. Step 1 is the tuner though so might as well knock that out.
But like Bubba said, you have to remove the DPF if you turn off regen otherwise it will plug that up. When purchasing the delete piep make sure it deletes the CAT & DPF.
But like Bubba said, you have to remove the DPF if you turn off regen otherwise it will plug that up. When purchasing the delete piep make sure it deletes the CAT & DPF.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: Henderson, NV
Not to throw you off course but a more reasonable approach would be a DPF-R to delete the DPF and EGR
something like this DPF-R DPF Delete Module 4.0, Ford (2008-10) 6.4L Power Stroke, Automatic Transmission
Unless your looking for additional power, i have the spartan tuning now well over 100K miles and love it
something like this DPF-R DPF Delete Module 4.0, Ford (2008-10) 6.4L Power Stroke, Automatic Transmission
Unless your looking for additional power, i have the spartan tuning now well over 100K miles and love it
More Turbo
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 627
Likes: 17
"I've had it a week and I already hate the regen"
So what exactly do you hate about the regen? The fact that it exists? The fact that it cuts your MPG a fraction of a MPG?
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
I've got a bit over 100K on my legal 6.4, sometimes I tow heavy, othertimes minimal load, it regens every 400-ish miles (the newer flash does shorter and more frequent regens than the early ones) and does just fine.
Spending $1,500 to illegally remove emissions equipment from your truck when that equipment has no practical affect seems pretty silly to me.
The key to all of the new emissions controlled diesels is proper maintenance, without that any of them can go bad fast. Here are my standard recomendations:
The 6.4 does not typically "self destruct", in many cases it is aided in destructing by operator who do not understand the requirements of the new emissions controlled diesels and use them for the wrong type of service, neglect maintenance, etc. Properly operated and maintained the 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels do just fine.
Now if you are looking at a used one, you have to be concerned about it's useage and maintenance prior to your purchase. Unlike pre-emissions diesels the post-emissions diesels can go bad very quickly if they are neglected or are used for all short trips.
The problem with assessing a used post-emissions diesel is that much of what you want to inspect is not readily visible. On the 6.4 you would ideally want to inspect the following:
- Lower HFCM fuel filter and housing for signs of gunk buildup, and to ensure the filters have been changed.
- Upper fuel filter, looking in the bottom of the housing for signs of rust spots or metal flakes both of which can mean expensive fuel system repairs.
- The water pump back housing for signs of cavitation damage.
- Coolant nitrite test to see if the coolant has been maintained properly.
- Used oil analysis on a sample with ~5k miles on it.
- Check for signs of leaks at the radiator hose connections and the radiator itself.
Since a used vehicle at a dealer has probably recieved a basic service with new oil and filters, some of the information you want will not be available at all.
Clearly the water pump housing can not be inspected in any reasonable fashion. The lower HFCM filter and housing can't be inspected without draining a quart plus of fuel and making a mess so it's not easily inspected.
The upper fuel filter can be inspected fairly easily with a flashlight, wrench and a container to rest the filter in when removed. This is one inspection you should absolutely do since a high pressure fuel pump and injectors is a good $8k repair.
The coolant nitrite test is another quick and easy test you can do, clip a test strip on the end of a long hemostat and just dunk it in the coolant degas tank, wait the 45 seconds and compare the color chart. Most dealers probably won't change the coolant on a used truck so it your nitrite test shows under 300ppm nitrite, reject the truck for neglected maintenance.
My standard maintenance recommendations for the 6.4:
If you have not owned one of the newer emissions controlled diesels previously (any brand), be aware that they are far more dependent on proper maintenance than earlier diesels.
Key 6.4 maintenance items:
* Oil changes every 5,000 miles, with quality oil (synthetic recommended), used oil analysis (Blackstone) for every change. Use only Motorcraft oil filters or the Racor (OEM) equivalent.
* Fuel filter changes every 10,000 miles. Use only Motorcraft FD4617 or the Racor (OEM) equivalent filters.
* Coolant nitrite testing at least every 15,000 miles. I recommend every 5,000 miles at the same time you do the oil change for simplicity, the test strips are inexpensive. Do not be confused by the test directions warning not to sample from an overflow tank, the 6.4 does not have an overflow tank it has a degas bottle. The degas bottle is part of the coolant loop with constant circulation so it is a valid testing point. I do not bother "taking a sample", I simply clip the test strip on the end of a long hemostat and dunk it in the degas bottle to test. If the test is below 800ppm and above 300ppm add two bottles of VC-8 additive. If below 300ppm the entire coolant system must be flushed with VC-9 cleaner, rinsed well and refilled with new coolant.
* Cooling system flush with VC-9 and refill with Ford Gold coolant every 60,000 miles, sooner if you have neglected testing and the nitrite is under 300ppm.
* Use a quality fuel conditioner such as the Ford PM-22a/23a conditioners at every fueling. They add lubricity to the fuel, something that ULSD is lacking in which helps protect the high pressure (up to 26,000 PSI) fuel pump. They also help to reduce soot production which results in less frequent DPF regens and less fuel dilution in the engine oil.
* Drain the HFCM water separator monthly. The fuel drained can be poured back into the tank carefully leaving behind any water at the bottom of the collection jar (normally very little). If the water separator drain does not flow well or at all, it may be clogged with either parafin blobs or with bacterial growth. In either case at a minimum the drain valve cover needs to be removed and the clog cleared. If the clog is significant the HFCM cover needs to be removed for full cleaning. If the clog is white and waxy it's parafin and not a significant issue. If the clog is brown or similar and more slimy it is bacterial growth and the fuel tank should be "shocked" with a biocide such as Power Service Bio-Kleen which should not be confused with their Diesel-Kleen.
* The truck should not be used for all short trips and stop and go traffic. The 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels need regular longer periods at highway speeds to allow proper DPF regeneration and to get to proper operating temperature to help reduce fuel contamination in the engine oil.
* The latest PCM flash (11B23) does not provide continuous indication of when a DPF regen is taking place, it does however add much improved engine monitoring for developing issues. Over time you will get to recognize the subtle changes, but I recommend adding something like the ScanGauge II which will allow you to monitor the DPF temperature which is a clear indication that a regen is in progress when over ~600F.
* Avoid shutting the truck down with a regen in progress. If you have to, run the engine at high idle for a few minutes in park before shutting down to allow the turbos to cool down to normal temperatures before shutdown. If you are interrupting the regens you will see it in your Blackstone report, otherwise you should see very little fuel dilution, <1%.
You should also absolutely get the Ford ESP extended warranty, any repairs to the 6.4 are expensive and a single big repair can easily cover the cost of the ESP warranty. The coolant nitrite testing that many people overlook *is* in the owner's manual diesel supplement, so if you neglect it Ford can deny warranty coverage for resulting damage.
Other Super Duty maintenance items:
* Batteries - The batteries in these trucks are not the maintanence free / unmaintainable type, pop the caps to check and top up with distilled water periodically.
* Change transfer case fluid every 60,000 miles.
* Change rear differential fluid every 50,000 miles on DANA axles (F350 DRW and up).
* Change transmission fluid and filter every 60,000 miles on Torqshift transmissions (100k on manual transmissions). If you have the early Torqshift with the external filter the interval is much shorter.
Resources:
Coolant test strips - Buy the 4pk, not the bottle of 50, the strips have expiration dates and you'll only need <10 per year. Most dealer parts counters should have the test strips, NAPA has them, or order direct from Acustrip.
Ford Rotunda 328-2050
Ford Rotunda CTS-3 3-Way HD Antifreeze
The Ford Rotunda 328-2050 (CTS-3) series of test strips provides a fast and simple manner for testing SCA and freeze point in antifreeze coolant. Test your coolant frequently to protect against liner pitting, corrosion and coolant dilution. This three-way test strip measures Glycol, Molybdate and Nitrite. The Specific ranges are as follows:
Nitrite 0 - 3200 ppm
Molybdate 0 - 1000 ppm
Glycol 0 - 60%
Used oil testing - Blackstone Labs, get the pre-paid 6pk of test kits to save a few bucks. You don't need the TBN option:
Order Now
Ford ESP extended warrantys - You can buy them online from real dealers, or use the online price from a real dealer to negotiate a better price from your local dealer. You absolutely want the ESP, while the 6.4 is not problematic as some claim as long as you maintain it properly, nearly any repair is big $ and one good one will cover the ESP cost:
Ford Extended Warranty | Genuine Ford ESP | Discounted Pricing
DPF, oil, coolant temp monitoring - ScangaugeII, you will need to program the X-gauge commands for the 6.4:
ScanGauge - Trip Computer + Digitial Gauges + ScanTools
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Specific : Linear Logic : Home of the ScanGauge
So what exactly do you hate about the regen? The fact that it exists? The fact that it cuts your MPG a fraction of a MPG?
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
I've got a bit over 100K on my legal 6.4, sometimes I tow heavy, othertimes minimal load, it regens every 400-ish miles (the newer flash does shorter and more frequent regens than the early ones) and does just fine.
Spending $1,500 to illegally remove emissions equipment from your truck when that equipment has no practical affect seems pretty silly to me.
The key to all of the new emissions controlled diesels is proper maintenance, without that any of them can go bad fast. Here are my standard recomendations:
The 6.4 does not typically "self destruct", in many cases it is aided in destructing by operator who do not understand the requirements of the new emissions controlled diesels and use them for the wrong type of service, neglect maintenance, etc. Properly operated and maintained the 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels do just fine.
Now if you are looking at a used one, you have to be concerned about it's useage and maintenance prior to your purchase. Unlike pre-emissions diesels the post-emissions diesels can go bad very quickly if they are neglected or are used for all short trips.
The problem with assessing a used post-emissions diesel is that much of what you want to inspect is not readily visible. On the 6.4 you would ideally want to inspect the following:
- Lower HFCM fuel filter and housing for signs of gunk buildup, and to ensure the filters have been changed.
- Upper fuel filter, looking in the bottom of the housing for signs of rust spots or metal flakes both of which can mean expensive fuel system repairs.
- The water pump back housing for signs of cavitation damage.
- Coolant nitrite test to see if the coolant has been maintained properly.
- Used oil analysis on a sample with ~5k miles on it.
- Check for signs of leaks at the radiator hose connections and the radiator itself.
Since a used vehicle at a dealer has probably recieved a basic service with new oil and filters, some of the information you want will not be available at all.
Clearly the water pump housing can not be inspected in any reasonable fashion. The lower HFCM filter and housing can't be inspected without draining a quart plus of fuel and making a mess so it's not easily inspected.
The upper fuel filter can be inspected fairly easily with a flashlight, wrench and a container to rest the filter in when removed. This is one inspection you should absolutely do since a high pressure fuel pump and injectors is a good $8k repair.
The coolant nitrite test is another quick and easy test you can do, clip a test strip on the end of a long hemostat and just dunk it in the coolant degas tank, wait the 45 seconds and compare the color chart. Most dealers probably won't change the coolant on a used truck so it your nitrite test shows under 300ppm nitrite, reject the truck for neglected maintenance.
My standard maintenance recommendations for the 6.4:
If you have not owned one of the newer emissions controlled diesels previously (any brand), be aware that they are far more dependent on proper maintenance than earlier diesels.
Key 6.4 maintenance items:
* Oil changes every 5,000 miles, with quality oil (synthetic recommended), used oil analysis (Blackstone) for every change. Use only Motorcraft oil filters or the Racor (OEM) equivalent.
* Fuel filter changes every 10,000 miles. Use only Motorcraft FD4617 or the Racor (OEM) equivalent filters.
* Coolant nitrite testing at least every 15,000 miles. I recommend every 5,000 miles at the same time you do the oil change for simplicity, the test strips are inexpensive. Do not be confused by the test directions warning not to sample from an overflow tank, the 6.4 does not have an overflow tank it has a degas bottle. The degas bottle is part of the coolant loop with constant circulation so it is a valid testing point. I do not bother "taking a sample", I simply clip the test strip on the end of a long hemostat and dunk it in the degas bottle to test. If the test is below 800ppm and above 300ppm add two bottles of VC-8 additive. If below 300ppm the entire coolant system must be flushed with VC-9 cleaner, rinsed well and refilled with new coolant.
* Cooling system flush with VC-9 and refill with Ford Gold coolant every 60,000 miles, sooner if you have neglected testing and the nitrite is under 300ppm.
* Use a quality fuel conditioner such as the Ford PM-22a/23a conditioners at every fueling. They add lubricity to the fuel, something that ULSD is lacking in which helps protect the high pressure (up to 26,000 PSI) fuel pump. They also help to reduce soot production which results in less frequent DPF regens and less fuel dilution in the engine oil.
* Drain the HFCM water separator monthly. The fuel drained can be poured back into the tank carefully leaving behind any water at the bottom of the collection jar (normally very little). If the water separator drain does not flow well or at all, it may be clogged with either parafin blobs or with bacterial growth. In either case at a minimum the drain valve cover needs to be removed and the clog cleared. If the clog is significant the HFCM cover needs to be removed for full cleaning. If the clog is white and waxy it's parafin and not a significant issue. If the clog is brown or similar and more slimy it is bacterial growth and the fuel tank should be "shocked" with a biocide such as Power Service Bio-Kleen which should not be confused with their Diesel-Kleen.
* The truck should not be used for all short trips and stop and go traffic. The 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels need regular longer periods at highway speeds to allow proper DPF regeneration and to get to proper operating temperature to help reduce fuel contamination in the engine oil.
* The latest PCM flash (11B23) does not provide continuous indication of when a DPF regen is taking place, it does however add much improved engine monitoring for developing issues. Over time you will get to recognize the subtle changes, but I recommend adding something like the ScanGauge II which will allow you to monitor the DPF temperature which is a clear indication that a regen is in progress when over ~600F.
* Avoid shutting the truck down with a regen in progress. If you have to, run the engine at high idle for a few minutes in park before shutting down to allow the turbos to cool down to normal temperatures before shutdown. If you are interrupting the regens you will see it in your Blackstone report, otherwise you should see very little fuel dilution, <1%.
You should also absolutely get the Ford ESP extended warranty, any repairs to the 6.4 are expensive and a single big repair can easily cover the cost of the ESP warranty. The coolant nitrite testing that many people overlook *is* in the owner's manual diesel supplement, so if you neglect it Ford can deny warranty coverage for resulting damage.
Other Super Duty maintenance items:
* Batteries - The batteries in these trucks are not the maintanence free / unmaintainable type, pop the caps to check and top up with distilled water periodically.
* Change transfer case fluid every 60,000 miles.
* Change rear differential fluid every 50,000 miles on DANA axles (F350 DRW and up).
* Change transmission fluid and filter every 60,000 miles on Torqshift transmissions (100k on manual transmissions). If you have the early Torqshift with the external filter the interval is much shorter.
Resources:
Coolant test strips - Buy the 4pk, not the bottle of 50, the strips have expiration dates and you'll only need <10 per year. Most dealer parts counters should have the test strips, NAPA has them, or order direct from Acustrip.
Ford Rotunda 328-2050
Ford Rotunda CTS-3 3-Way HD Antifreeze
The Ford Rotunda 328-2050 (CTS-3) series of test strips provides a fast and simple manner for testing SCA and freeze point in antifreeze coolant. Test your coolant frequently to protect against liner pitting, corrosion and coolant dilution. This three-way test strip measures Glycol, Molybdate and Nitrite. The Specific ranges are as follows:
Nitrite 0 - 3200 ppm
Molybdate 0 - 1000 ppm
Glycol 0 - 60%
Used oil testing - Blackstone Labs, get the pre-paid 6pk of test kits to save a few bucks. You don't need the TBN option:
Order Now
Ford ESP extended warrantys - You can buy them online from real dealers, or use the online price from a real dealer to negotiate a better price from your local dealer. You absolutely want the ESP, while the 6.4 is not problematic as some claim as long as you maintain it properly, nearly any repair is big $ and one good one will cover the ESP cost:
Ford Extended Warranty | Genuine Ford ESP | Discounted Pricing
DPF, oil, coolant temp monitoring - ScangaugeII, you will need to program the X-gauge commands for the 6.4:
ScanGauge - Trip Computer + Digitial Gauges + ScanTools
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Specific : Linear Logic : Home of the ScanGauge
Trending Topics
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: Henderson, NV
[QUOTE=wp6529;14439994]"I've had it a week and I already hate the regen"
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
Cargo Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 4
From: Redford, Mi.
[QUOTE=SANDDEMON08;14446153]
I'd have to agree, I tried everything to stop mine from making oil, it just wasn't going to happen, it's a good boy now.
"I've had it a week and I already hate the regen"
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
More Turbo
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 627
Likes: 17
[quote=SANDDEMON08;14446153]
I get this from understanding the system, how it operates, and most importantly the maintenance requirements of the new generation diesels which beyond the obvious emissions changes are light years ahead of their predecessors in technology. I also get this from 102,000+ uneventful miles on my 6.4 and the Blackstone reports I get for every 5k oil change I do.
Would you really want to trade the electrinocally controlled high pressure common rail injection, and servo controlled variable geometry turbos for the old mechanical injection pumps and spool up in a minute or so turbos of old? The 350-450 HP for the old 175 HP? I'll take the extra maintenance required of these new vastly more sophisticated and higher performance diesels.
"I've had it a week and I already hate the regen"
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
Would you really want to trade the electrinocally controlled high pressure common rail injection, and servo controlled variable geometry turbos for the old mechanical injection pumps and spool up in a minute or so turbos of old? The 350-450 HP for the old 175 HP? I'll take the extra maintenance required of these new vastly more sophisticated and higher performance diesels.
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 2
From: Henderson, NV
[quote=wp6529;14449164]
I get this from understanding the system, how it operates, and most importantly the maintenance requirements of the new generation diesels which beyond the obvious emissions changes are light years ahead of their predecessors in technology. I also get this from 102,000+ uneventful miles on my 6.4 and the Blackstone reports I get for every 5k oil change I do.
Would you really want to trade the electrinocally controlled high pressure common rail injection, and servo controlled variable geometry turbos for the old mechanical injection pumps and spool up in a minute or so turbos of old? The 350-450 HP for the old 175 HP? I'll take the extra maintenance required of these new vastly more sophisticated and higher performance diesels.
Thats like comparing a 7.3 IDI to a 7.3 powerstroke, Its not about the technology in modern engines, its about the facts and lack of efficient reliable measures to meet EPA requirements,and the facts are clear the tier 2 emission requirements on the 6.4 engines have hindered the performance and reliability of the engine. I am glad you have not had any issues at 105,000 miles and its great you take good preventative maintenance steps to protect your investment but your profile does not fit the typical 6.4 engines. You stated: The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Its a fact the 6.4's are known to make oil due to the regen process. I have oil sampled my engine along with many others and its common to see 2% to 5% fuel dilution with the factory DPF system in place even blackstone will back that up if you call them. Its fact other owners have had these issues to the extent Even Ford has addressed performance issues in a TSB due to costumers generated complaints.
TSB
07-4-11 6.4L DIESEL - REGENERATION FUNCTIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Publication Date: February 20, 2007
FORD: 2008 F-Super Duty
ISSUE:
2008 F-Super Duty vehicles equipped with the 6.4L diesel engine are equipped with an oxidation catalytic converter (OC) and diesel particulate filter (DPF). The function and operation of these parts may cause some customers to perceive an issue with their vehicle.
ACTION:
Review the Operating Characteristics with the customer.
OPERATING CHARACTERISTICS
Diesel particulates in the exhaust are trapped by the DPF. Regeneration is the process by which exhaust temperatures are increased so the particulates are combusted.
The frequency and length of regeneration will fluctuate as both are determined by the drive cycle. For most drive conditions, regeneration frequency will vary from 100 - 600 miles (161 - 804 Km) between occurrence and last from 10 to 40 minutes. The first regeneration does not require 100 miles (161 Km) and may occur at any time. The length of regeneration is usually reduced if a constant speed above 30 MPH (48 Km/h) is maintained.
The following is a list of normal operation while the vehicle is in regeneration, and do not require repair. If you are not sure if the vehicle is in regeneration, IDS can be used to monitor the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) PID.
Engine idle speed can be 1100 to 1200 RPM in park/neutral with foot off brake.
High idle speed drops to within 50 RPM of normal idle when the brake pedal is touched, PRNDL is actuated, or clutch is actuated.
White smoke in cold ambients is normal and the amount will be increased during regeneration.
Powertrain power is limited to 325 horsepower (HP).
Engine responsiveness may be slightly different than normal operation.
During initiation of regeneration, exhaust smell may be noticed - especially on new vehicles.
Powertrain sound will be different including air induction noise (including flutter on deceleration or engine shut down), exhaust noise, and changes in engine radiated noise.
During regeneration, exhaust temperatures are elevated.
The following is also normal and may be observed by a technician using a diagnostic tool. It is not likely that a customer would be aware of these:
The throttle body is only active during the regeneration process and during shutdown.
EGR is not operating during regeneration.
Since you have knowledge of the system functions you understand just how the DPF works and why the extra fuel is present in the oil due to the regen process. 6.4L’s regeneration cycle uses a post-injection event to introduce extra fuel during the exhaust stroke. In a perfect world, 100 percent of that fuel vaporizes and travels downstream to the catalyst (which serves as an incinerator for accumulated soot). But in reality, not all fuel vaporizes during the post-injection event, and the leftover fuel latches onto cylinder walls and squeezes past the piston and rings, and into the crankcase. The same issue that causes the lack of good fuel mileage.
With that being said, IMO the performance and reliability are an issue as a result of the emission equipment and requirements on the 6.4 engine.
I get this from understanding the system, how it operates, and most importantly the maintenance requirements of the new generation diesels which beyond the obvious emissions changes are light years ahead of their predecessors in technology. I also get this from 102,000+ uneventful miles on my 6.4 and the Blackstone reports I get for every 5k oil change I do.
Would you really want to trade the electrinocally controlled high pressure common rail injection, and servo controlled variable geometry turbos for the old mechanical injection pumps and spool up in a minute or so turbos of old? The 350-450 HP for the old 175 HP? I'll take the extra maintenance required of these new vastly more sophisticated and higher performance diesels.
Its a fact the 6.4's are known to make oil due to the regen process. I have oil sampled my engine along with many others and its common to see 2% to 5% fuel dilution with the factory DPF system in place even blackstone will back that up if you call them. Its fact other owners have had these issues to the extent Even Ford has addressed performance issues in a TSB due to costumers generated complaints.
TSB
07-4-11 6.4L DIESEL - REGENERATION FUNCTIONAL CHARACTERISTICS
Publication Date: February 20, 2007
FORD: 2008 F-Super Duty
ISSUE:
2008 F-Super Duty vehicles equipped with the 6.4L diesel engine are equipped with an oxidation catalytic converter (OC) and diesel particulate filter (DPF). The function and operation of these parts may cause some customers to perceive an issue with their vehicle.
ACTION:
Review the Operating Characteristics with the customer.
OPERATING CHARACTERISTICS
Diesel particulates in the exhaust are trapped by the DPF. Regeneration is the process by which exhaust temperatures are increased so the particulates are combusted.
The frequency and length of regeneration will fluctuate as both are determined by the drive cycle. For most drive conditions, regeneration frequency will vary from 100 - 600 miles (161 - 804 Km) between occurrence and last from 10 to 40 minutes. The first regeneration does not require 100 miles (161 Km) and may occur at any time. The length of regeneration is usually reduced if a constant speed above 30 MPH (48 Km/h) is maintained.
The following is a list of normal operation while the vehicle is in regeneration, and do not require repair. If you are not sure if the vehicle is in regeneration, IDS can be used to monitor the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF) PID.
Engine idle speed can be 1100 to 1200 RPM in park/neutral with foot off brake.
High idle speed drops to within 50 RPM of normal idle when the brake pedal is touched, PRNDL is actuated, or clutch is actuated.
White smoke in cold ambients is normal and the amount will be increased during regeneration.
Powertrain power is limited to 325 horsepower (HP).
Engine responsiveness may be slightly different than normal operation.
During initiation of regeneration, exhaust smell may be noticed - especially on new vehicles.
Powertrain sound will be different including air induction noise (including flutter on deceleration or engine shut down), exhaust noise, and changes in engine radiated noise.
During regeneration, exhaust temperatures are elevated.
The following is also normal and may be observed by a technician using a diagnostic tool. It is not likely that a customer would be aware of these:
The throttle body is only active during the regeneration process and during shutdown.
EGR is not operating during regeneration.
Since you have knowledge of the system functions you understand just how the DPF works and why the extra fuel is present in the oil due to the regen process. 6.4L’s regeneration cycle uses a post-injection event to introduce extra fuel during the exhaust stroke. In a perfect world, 100 percent of that fuel vaporizes and travels downstream to the catalyst (which serves as an incinerator for accumulated soot). But in reality, not all fuel vaporizes during the post-injection event, and the leftover fuel latches onto cylinder walls and squeezes past the piston and rings, and into the crankcase. The same issue that causes the lack of good fuel mileage.
With that being said, IMO the performance and reliability are an issue as a result of the emission equipment and requirements on the 6.4 engine.
More Turbo
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 627
Likes: 17
My 102,000+ of experience with my 6.4 has shown that it does not "make oil" during the regen process, with Blackstone reports showing <0.5% fuel dilution. When it does "make oil" is if you interrupt regens. Just a couple interrupted regens in a 5k oil change cycle can give you 1% FD, but if you monitor and take care to not interrupt regens you will stay at <0.5% FD.
A 2007 TSB refers to the regen strategy that has not been used in a few firmware updates (flashes). There is no high idle and regen in park anymore unless you use an add-on box to manually trigger a parked regen.
Multiple times I have towed moderately heavy up steep hills both in regen and not in regen and have seen no difference in performance, boost pressure, etc. The only difference was the EGT reported by my ScangaugeII.
What I have found is that most people don't understand the regen process, and that includes most dealer techs. This seems to be the reason why some people have high fuel dilution either from constantly interrupting their regens, of from having an actual fault in the engine that the techs aren't properly diagnosing.
A 2007 TSB refers to the regen strategy that has not been used in a few firmware updates (flashes). There is no high idle and regen in park anymore unless you use an add-on box to manually trigger a parked regen.
Multiple times I have towed moderately heavy up steep hills both in regen and not in regen and have seen no difference in performance, boost pressure, etc. The only difference was the EGT reported by my ScangaugeII.
What I have found is that most people don't understand the regen process, and that includes most dealer techs. This seems to be the reason why some people have high fuel dilution either from constantly interrupting their regens, of from having an actual fault in the engine that the techs aren't properly diagnosing.
Cargo Master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 4
From: Redford, Mi.
Not all 6.4's act the same, I knew when my truck was in a regen, you can hear the difference and feel it. On more than one occasion I was late for work driving the extra miles to run through a regen and it still made oil. I'm glad it works for you, it didn't with mine, I also do feel that the DEF will have some affect on other parts of the 6.4 but who knows, maybe it's just a select few who for whatever reason it seems to negatively affect. Anyways I didn't do what I did just because I could, I did it to bypass issues I would have had if I would have left it alone.
More Turbo
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 627
Likes: 17
If it's the same engine and the same PCM firmware, running the same spec fuel and with the same maintenance and it's acting "different" that means there is a fault that needs to be identified and repaired. An engine is not a natural product that is expected to have variations from piece to piece. Indeed this is 2014, and engines and all other components are built to very tight tolerances today.
This is my point about the lack of understanding of the system and the lack of proper diagnosis when there are symptoms of a problem. For the fuel dilution from everything I've seen the two possibilities are the operator regularly interrupting regens, or a fault in the engine, likely a sensor problem.
This is my point about the lack of understanding of the system and the lack of proper diagnosis when there are symptoms of a problem. For the fuel dilution from everything I've seen the two possibilities are the operator regularly interrupting regens, or a fault in the engine, likely a sensor problem.
Banned
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,457
Likes: 0
From: Grande Prairie, AB
[QUOTE=SANDDEMON08;14446153]
I stopped reading his post after that sentence....
"I've had it a week and I already hate the regen"
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.
The fact is that the DPF and regen process if working properly on a properly maintained truck is simply a non-issue. It doesn't affect performance, nor vehicle reliability.
Where have you seen this information. Based on information I have received from service techs, read on forums and personally experienced I would say at least 85-90% of the 6.4 engine major issues are directly related to the EGR, DPF and regen process. Even the EPA has discussed the negative impacts these systems have on modern diesel engines. Yes they run cleaner but directly at the expense of less reliability and more costly maintenance. Its a law and not legal to remove the emission equipment but to state it doesn't affect performance or reliability is seems a stretch far from the facts.